Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

trading

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I also closed out all my inclusion trades. I learned a lot about short term option buying around an event. My largest call positions were up 400% at one point, and I closed out today at 177%. Still great, but left a lot of money on the table. I probably should have sold half a couple weeks ago and locked that in. But mostly just happy that I didn't lose any money.

I bought to close my Dec 31 $500 put at 92% profit and sold another Jan 15th $525. Other than that, I don't have enough of a prediction what the SP or IV will do in the near term in order to put anything else in play.
 
is there a reason for the $900 as opposed to other strike calls?
TSLA is going to rock and roll over the next 24 months and I wanted to strike a balance between being somewhat conservative and not leaving too much money on the table. IMO, $900 is near certain well before expiry even if major setbacks happen along the way. I'm assuming the DBE process will be scaled in Berlin and Austin by early/mid 2022 which is the 2nd most important thing on Tesla's roadmap besides achieving full autonomy. If both happen by Jan 2023, forget about it.

Right now, I believe LEAPs are the best way to beat HODLing while also playing it "safe". I might take a few chances on short term calls but only if I'm really feeling it.
 
Same here, closed all inclusion calls. My best trade was almost 10x, could have been 12x but got greedy. Bought 5x OTM 545c the morning after the announcement and it moved ITM very quickly, so easy to hold. My 50x 700s were profitable, but very glad I dumped them early for 2-4x because SP never reached 700. My smaller 900s were a disaster, but again greedy and should have sold earlier for profit. A couple stupid buys were a complete loss. All in all, I sold 200 shares to do these calls and returned with 260 shares and cash just shy of another 100 shares. Sold a covered 575p with that cash, so may turn into shares in the future (I hop not). Not quite a double, but a decent return. I certainly don’t expect to do this well again. Just hoping to sell CCs without losing the shares.
 
Just hoping to sell CCs without losing the shares.

Do you have a defined strategy that you are following for selling the CCs?

I'm new to this, but my plan is to sell when IV spikes and only sell for a date that is short of the next expected spike. For example, sell a CC for 22Jan2021 when the Q4 numbers are out. Then, if those shares aren't called away, sell again after the Q4 report at a date to be determined (next identified IV spike). Any feedback on this plan would be appreciated.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: ReddyLeaf
TSLA is going to rock and roll over the next 24 months and I wanted to strike a balance between being somewhat conservative and not leaving too much money on the table. IMO, $900 is near certain well before expiry even if major setbacks happen along the way. I'm assuming the DBE process will be scaled in Berlin and Austin by early/mid 2022 which is the 2nd most important thing on Tesla's roadmap besides achieving full autonomy. If both happen by Jan 2023, forget about it.
$900 seems a relative lock to me medium term as well, that's why I'm so annoyed we're sitting here at $63x today. My plan was to use the inclusion spike to sell 2022 covered calls waaaaay outside any strike I thought we'd hit, but I'm not about to sell at $900 strikes today. Not willing to lose my shares at <$1T valuation this time next year. Sold one at $1200 early in the day today just in case we tanked and stayed there, plan to wait a bit to sell more at $1000-1200 at varying expirations.

Probably should've planned to exit my Jan15 calls Monday mid-morning regardless of sentiment, but I'm sitting tight today. $640 is too low for me to cash out on deep ITM Jan15 calls. I'll begrudgingly take a SP of $680 later this week maybe. There's no large premium on this that I can see, might as well wait for the 2020 deliveries and potentially 2021 guidance. We shall see.

These two days feel like tree-shaking for shares and a major push-downs to kill 12/24 calls. I still think the pushdown below $700 might just barely stick through the end of the week, they're expending a lot of energy for a Mon/Tue. Could see us landing suspiciously at $695 Friday. Not that my feelings have been correct as of late....
 
There almost HAVE to be some traders who were just in it for the short-term profits, and have probably been bailing over the last two days. I'm disappointed that we never went above $700, but not completely surprised. Complaining that my calls didn't shoot to the moon when my stock is up 56% or whatever since inclusion was announced must be the very definition of a First World Problem. My most outrageous dreams have been crushed, but hey, they were outrageous.

It seems clear that Tesla is still growing, and I've not yet seen a peak in the stock price that wasn't later exceeded. So I'm pretty certain that we'll eventually leave $700 behind, but I'm not yet ready to assume it will be very soon. If we stay above $600 for now, that would be just fine with me. I'm still hoping for fireworks upon the Q4 delivery numbers, and again upon the Q4 financial results. (I guess it remains to be seen how outrageous that hope is. :)

But circling back to the point of the thread, I think I have a revised plan for the next time I buy short-term calls: sell 1/3 if/when they're up 3x, 1/3 if/when they're up 10x, and then see what to do with the final 1/3. I definitely missed the pre-inclusion peak, and I would rather lock in at least that much gain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ReddyLeaf
$900 seems a relative lock to me medium term as well, that's why I'm so annoyed we're sitting here at $63x today. My plan was to use the inclusion spike to sell 2022 covered calls waaaaay outside any strike I thought we'd hit, but I'm not about to sell at $900 strikes today. Not willing to lose my shares at <$1T valuation this time next year. Sold one at $1200 early in the day today just in case we tanked and stayed there, plan to wait a bit to sell more at $1000-1200 at varying expirations.

Probably should've planned to exit my Jan15 calls Monday mid-morning regardless of sentiment, but I'm sitting tight today. $640 is too low for me to cash out on deep ITM Jan15 calls. I'll begrudgingly take a SP of $680 later this week maybe. There's no large premium on this that I can see, might as well wait for the 2020 deliveries and potentially 2021 guidance. We shall see.

These two days feel like tree-shaking for shares and a major push-downs to kill 12/24 calls. I still think the pushdown below $700 might just barely stick through the end of the week, they're expending a lot of energy for a Mon/Tue. Could see us landing suspiciously at $695 Friday. Not that my feelings have been correct as of late....
I'm not sure where you stand relative to your overall financial goals, but selling TSLA covered calls isn't worth it to me. From my standpoint, you can't make enough money from them to move the needle (without risking a lot) and they just give you one more thing to worry about. I also agree with the logic that says they represent a semi-bearish outlook. The "generating steady income" argument is has no appeal. The bottom line to me is the upside has a ceiling and the downside could be huge. I would rather invert that into unlimited upside with a defined downside by buying calls instead.

Even if 2021 is shaky (which I doubt), I'll be shocked if TSLA isn't well past $900 by mid-2022, much less Jan 2023. IMO, it's similar to HODLing except the returns are 2x-3x (or more). If I was young and still had <$1M, I would take more risk and might near 100% into "semi-conservative" OTM leaps instead of actually owning stock.
 
Do you have a defined strategy that you are following for selling the CCs?

I'm new to this, but my plan is to sell when IV spikes and only sell for a date that is short of the next expected spike. For example, sell a CC for 22Jan2021 when the Q4 numbers are out. Then, if those shares aren't called away, sell again after the Q4 report at a date to be determined (next identified IV spike). Any feedback on this plan would be appreciated.
Great idea. Unfortunately, selling CCs at the best time usually means exactly at the peak during a run up. Right before the earnings announcement sounds perfect. You definitely don’t want to follow me because I’m a newbie and miss-time most of my trades. I’m usually lucky to get $500 profit on a contract.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cbh03
I'm not sure where you stand relative to your overall financial goals, but selling TSLA covered calls isn't worth it to me. From my standpoint, you can't make enough money from them to move the needle (without risking a lot) and they just give you one more thing to worry about. I also agree with the logic that says they represent a semi-bearish outlook. The "generating steady income" argument is has no appeal. The bottom line to me is the upside has a ceiling and the downside could be huge. I would rather invert that into unlimited upside with a defined downside by buying calls instead.

Even if 2021 is shaky (which I doubt), I'll be shocked if TSLA isn't well past $900 by mid-2022, much less Jan 2023. IMO, it's similar to HODLing except the returns are 2x-3x (or more). If I was young and still had <$1M, I would take more risk and might near 100% into "semi-conservative" OTM leaps instead of actually owning stock.
I'm of the same opinion, just willing to roll the dice at a strike beyond $1T market cap in 2021. There are always bubbles and there are always pops. Once we pass $1T I'm sure we'll revisit it on the next pop and I can buy back 2022-2025.

These folks I see posting about selling CC's prior to inclusion give me heartburn. I want to sell a bunch of contracts at varying high strikes and 1+yr out so I can stop trying to track and predict the movements of this stock. Just take the premium, lock the shares away, and not have to take action unless some contracts execute. I'd say it's very very similar to just holding. Can't wait!
 
I'm not sure where you stand relative to your overall financial goals, but selling TSLA covered calls isn't worth it to me. From my standpoint, you can't make enough money from them to move the needle (without risking a lot) and they just give you one more thing to worry about. I also agree with the logic that says they represent a semi-bearish outlook. The "generating steady income" argument is has no appeal. The bottom line to me is the upside has a ceiling and the downside could be huge. I would rather invert that into unlimited upside with a defined downside by buying calls instead.

Even if 2021 is shaky (which I doubt), I'll be shocked if TSLA isn't well past $900 by mid-2022, much less Jan 2023. IMO, it's similar to HODLing except the returns are 2x-3x (or more). If I was young and still had <$1M, I would take more risk and might near 100% into "semi-conservative" OTM leaps instead of actually owning stock.

What's the downside? I'm not sure i understand.
 
What's the downside? I'm not sure i understand.
With selling covered calls, the share price could soar, which means you can lose big vs HODLing.

With calls in general, the seller has a defined upside and (theoretically) an unlimited downside. The buyer has a defined downside but an unlimited upside. I use the term "unlimited" a bit generously, to make a point.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: ReddyLeaf and UCF3
With selling covered calls, the share price could soar, which means you can lose big vs HODLing.

With calls in general, the seller has a defined upside and (theoretically) an unlimited downside. The buyer has a defined downside but an unlimited upside. I use the term "unlimited" a bit generously, to make a point.

I would have thought that there was no downside risk. There is an opportunity cost if you have your shares called from you during a rally. However, if you are planning on holding the shares long term, I don't see any additional downside risk of selling a call against them. I'm not advocating for selling covered calls, i just want to make i have a proper understanding of the risk profile. Thanks
 
What's the downside? I'm not sure i understand.

Several downsides with selling options.

The big one is that a simple sale of an option is a defined reward investment, with unlimited loss potential. Your broker (and you) mitigate that unlimited loss by having the shares or cash on hand and sequestered so that no matter how bad the loss gets, you still have the cash / shares on hand to satisfy your contractual agreement.

In a covered call the unlimited loss occurs on the upside. An example - you sell a $700 call when the shares are at $600, expecting the shares to be under $700 on expiration day. If the shares go to $1000 though on expiration day, then you will sell your shares at $700 and miss out on the extra $300 in growth in the stock. That's what people are talking about when they say they don't want to risk their upside by selling covered calls.

There is also downside risk with the covered call, but it's the same downside risk as owning shares, with the bonus that you get to keep the premium received when you sold the call. In this case, selling the covered calls lowers your risk by lowering the break even on your share purchase.


In a cash secured put, the unlimited loss occurs on the downside. You sell a $500 put with shares at $600, expecting the shares to finish somewhere above $500. However, if they go to $300 at expiration, then you buy shares at $500 that you can sell at $300, losing $200 per share on the position. And of course, they have the similar secondary downside, except with sold puts, the secondary downside is that the shares take off on you, and you get to keep the premium and receive the benefit of the big move up to the degree that you own shares or otherwise have exposure to that move up.

Of course these are simplified examples - most options don't go to expiration. I think I've gone to expiration with 2 positions out of >100 trades this year, and 1 of those was intentional - I wanted to see what the assignment process looked like, as well as the full Wheel cycle (cash to shares, back to cash; or shares to cash, back to shares).


A good rule of thumb - if you can't identify the risk and consequences (good and bad), including tail risks, in any investment / position, whether it is options or an ETF or anything else, then that's a good indicator that there's something you don't understand that matters. Every choice has risks and rewards, costs and benefits, and that balance of consequences is what you're assessing with each investment you make (as well as the ones you don't make - no decision is also a decision not to act :D).

Similar to the poker rule - if you sit down at the table and can't identify the mark, guess who it is.


If you haven't read page 1 of the thread, I've got some additional comments that are specific to my own situation. They might help with some notions to noodle on, and may have nothing to do with your situation. If you haven't already done some options education, then you'll also find a link there to help you get started.
 
I would have thought that there was no downside risk. There is an opportunity cost if you have your shares called from you during a rally. However, if you are planning on holding the shares long term, I don't see any additional downside risk of selling a call against them. I'm not advocating for selling covered calls, i just want to make i have a proper understanding of the risk profile. Thanks

There is risk. Say you sell a $750 covered call, and then the price jumps to $950. You just lost $200/share when they execute the call. (Well less than $200 because you were paid something for the call.)
 
I would have thought that there was no downside risk. There is an opportunity cost if you have your shares called from you during a rally. However, if you are planning on holding the shares long term, I don't see any additional downside risk of selling a call against them. I'm not advocating for selling covered calls, i just want to make i have a proper understanding of the risk profile. Thanks

The only actual loss, given that you sell an OTM call, is the opportunity cost of missing out on a rally. It's my personal biggest fear with selling CC, and I think you'll find it's everybody else biggest fear here as well.

There are other ways of thinking about that though.

One is that if you need cash, but you don't need it immediately, and are ready to sell shares to raise that cash; then a covered call on those shares might be a mechanism to raise some cash immediately, and possibly sell the shares later. Example - if you're ready to sell shares today at $640 but don't need a big whack of cash immediately, then you're probably also willing to sell the shares for $700 in a month if that opportunity arose.

In this case, there won't be an opportunity cost - if the shares go past $700 by expiration, you get the premium plus a $700 sale price when you were ready to sell at $640. I think of this as a pre-sale of shares you're ready (or getting ready) to sell anyway. For those still in growth mode (as I've been for the last 8 years, but no longer as of the last few months), the risk of losing out on that upside is maybe too high. Tesla has twice gone on 6x or so runs in the last 8 years - missing out on one of those would hurt.

The risk to this pre-sale is the shares go down to $500 (or something). In this case you keep the premium, but now you need to raise cash and the shares are down $140.


There is another reason to sell calls (and puts). Once you're in an income and growth mindset, then the risk to your living expenses of a big drop in the share price becomes something you might want to mitigate. In this case, selling covered calls generates income you need immediately at the risk of your shares being called away later. If you have a big enough pile of shares, then that problem of shares called away comes with an even bigger portfolio to fund your portfolio.

An example for me - I've got enough to retire. To offset risk of loss, I'm selling covered calls at a level that if called away during an epic run, I'll miss out on a lot of that run. I sold some $4200 pre-split / 840s post-split for example, with a 2 year expiration - collected about $130 in premium. That's still more than 50% away at today's share price. I am increasingly feeling like those will be ITM at expiration.

But I'll be more than ok - I've had cash in the meantime for expenses (and selling puts). The outcomes might be: the shares might not be above $840 at expire time (keep the premium!); I might have an early close opportunity where I keep most of that $130/share premium, and even if they do get called away, then I've still doubled that particular position (actually ~tripled from when I opened). And without that gain or premium, I was at "enough" before the sale, and end up with even more than enough. (Do you know what "enough" is for you?)

And by selling that call, I've offset risk to the downside. From when I opened the position, I'll be even down to around $300 or a little lower (with an early close opportunity should the shares fall that far). If necessary that one position will provide 1-2 years of living expenses, and if called away, the profits when the shares are sold at $840 sale will generate another 3-5 years of living expenses.

In a big drop scenario, I'll still see my portfolio shrink, but the premium will buy me a year or two for the shares to recover. This is the difference between income and growth, and growth (at least as I see it). Before this summer, I'd just have held the shares and mostly been ignorant of the current price rally.


Also be aware - part of why I'm pursuing this approach to income, is that my wife and I are not yet emotionally ready to part with any of our shares, at least on a straight sale basis as we go along to raise living expenses. We're ready to pre-sell at a very high strike (I have 840s and 900s right now). If we were ready to sell shares as needed, then there is a reasonably good chance that we could do much better just owning shares. But we aren't, today, and I prefer to work with my emotions rather than trying to logic my way out of them; I'm reasonably confident this will change in the future (maybe when the shares are at $10,000 :D).

Context matters deeply, and we each need to understand our own context.
 
Quick update from me - I also finally gave up on any post-inclusion bump and sold off most of my calls for expiration up to Feb21. If I had made this decision on Monday after seeing @FrankSG blog post and @adiggs post here, I would have done very well. Although I ended up in the green overall, that was mainly due to the options purchased the day after the announcement which were over 2X. The short term speculative ones purchased week before inclusion ended red or worthless. It was the IV crush that seems to have killed any chance of good returns.

Good experience - although at times painful one. In future, I think it would be better to purchase options with a couple of months time rather than the short expirations which lose value really fast. I still have some deep ITM ones for January which were bought pre-split - these I will likely hold till P&D report. Also have LEAPS that are much further out.

With the IV so low, I was thinking of adding more LEAPS instead of shares - was looking at Jan'23 690 or 750 calls.
Any thoughts here on the strategy - Shares or LEAPS?
 
Quick update from me - I also finally gave up on any post-inclusion bump and sold off most of my calls for expiration up to Feb21. If I had made this decision on Monday after seeing @FrankSG blog post and @adiggs post here, I would have done very well. Although I ended up in the green overall, that was mainly due to the options purchased the day after the announcement which were over 2X. The short term speculative ones purchased week before inclusion ended red or worthless. It was the IV crush that seems to have killed any chance of good returns.

Good experience - although at times painful one. In future, I think it would be better to purchase options with a couple of months time rather than the short expirations which lose value really fast. I still have some deep ITM ones for January which were bought pre-split - these I will likely hold till P&D report. Also have LEAPS that are much further out.

With the IV so low, I was thinking of adding more LEAPS instead of shares - was looking at Jan'23 690 or 750 calls.
Any thoughts here on the strategy - Shares or LEAPS?

I had several learnings from this, one of which is that buying calls is the opposite of what I'm good at. It'll be rare for me to buy any in the future (and maybe never again, but I think that's doubtful), but when I do:
- go further out in time (don't aim for the week after the event as expiration)
- sell them off in chunks as milestones are achieved, lock in some gains, and have the remainder be the moonshot. i.e. - sell 1/3rd at 3x or something like that
- And the really tough one, that I'm really bad at - recognize the moment when there is still a lot of possibility in the opportunity, but the situation has evolved enough that the gap between possibility and reality is significantly smaller than the start. Time to get out. There was a moment a couple of weeks after the announcement, before the S&P announcement about the details, when I could have gotten out. Or even soon after the details announcement - the shares had run most of 50%. At that point, I still saw lots of possibilities (which was about all I was seeing), but it's also the case that the gap between possibility the day after original announcement and reality had shrunk a lot.

At the very least - sell off 1/2 or 1/3rd at that point (which I didn't).
- And another thing - if the trade feels crowded, it is; bail. If everybody only sees one outcome, then we're wrong :)

Primary learning - I'm bad at short term calls (say <3 months). It'll need to be nearly as good of a setup as the inclusion to get me into the pool again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mongo and ReddyLeaf
I decided this belongs in this thread rather than the main one, since it's mostly here to demonstrate my psychology when trading around the edges of my core position. I do this mostly because I like gambling, not because it necessarily does any better than buy and hold.

Yesterday (and of course I should have written Thursday rather than Friday):
Me, I sold a bunch of 645 strike 12/24 puts when TSLA was at 630 on the way down. The market informed me I was an idiot, so I wrote a bunch more when TSLA was at 615. Thankfully it didn't go down much more. Breakeven is TSLA 617 at close on Friday. At the moment, both positions are green. If TSLA goes green for the day I'll be quite happy, but I don't think it's likely.

I'll be satisfied if this position just does some to offset all the large down moves in all the others.

Yesterday after the close:
With the return of TSLA to just above 640, the gains on this new position offset all the other down moves, and my account ended up green on the day. Unexpectedly awesome! At least for today.

And today.... When TSLA went green this morning I thought about closing this position, buying back the puts for about $7.50. Nice profit! But I got greedy, figuring TSLA wouldn't go red, so that waiting would cause more premium erosion. I put in a limit order to buy to close for $4. Later I decided it wasn't going to reach that and so I upped it to $4.55.

Just before the close there was a short-lived spike up to $48 or so and my trade executed. Sometimes greed wins!

Of course it's likely this position would have expired worthless tomorrow, and probably below $4, but I didn't feel greedy enough to risk the unknown for another day. So $27.69 -> $4.55 in one day. Gotta love these trades when they work.

But it's worth noting that there were really two trades. The first one was at $21 (TSLA @~630.20) and the second for $32.16 (TSLA @~615.40) for 1.5x the number of contracts. So on the first I made $16.45/share, and on the second I made $27.61/share on 1.5x as many shares, about 2.5x as much. It makes a big difference getting things close to right. It's too bad I don't know how to do that with any consistency.:(