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Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC) should be standard free of cost - Let's vote and make Elon Hear

Should Tesla include traffic aware cruise control (TACC) as standard for free of cost ?


  • Total voters
    399
Honestly 5k-6k for Autosteer is pushing it, and not having an option to add TACC as a non-autosteer option makes it even worse. I agree that it shouldn't be free (they spent a ton of cash coding it up) and I don't mind paying a premium for TACC.

Here's what Tesla's almost definitely thinking: We need to up our revenues, and people buying 60k cars can probably pony up 5k for autosteer AND TACC if they truly want it. I definitely believe that if they offered TACC for, say, 2000 USD as a lone option, Tesla's overall revenues would decrease.
 

Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,224
7,091
Delaware
The misuse of terminology and misunderstanding related to it in this thread frustrate me greatly.

TACC - Traffic Aware Cruise Control - is unique to Tesla. To the best of my knowledge, no other manufacturer is using the same approach with sensor fusion between one radar and one or more cameras for Adaptive Cruise Control.

Saying Honda's TACC is the same as saying BMW's VTEC or Toyota's Quattro - they have systems to accomplish similar things, but they aren't the same and don't have the same performance.

Adaptive Cruise Controls (ACC) vary in features and performance a great deal. I was intrigued when Ford started offering ACC on the Fusion Titanium in about 2012 for around a grand. What I eventually realized is that it was an old first generation system - unable to handle stopping and starting or speeds below fifteen mph safely, let alone stopped cars.

Tesla's system may or may not be the best, but it is certainly up there. Mercedes uses several radars and a couple cameras, though it's not clear how much if any role the cameras have in Distronic ACC. Subaru has a remarkable unique system using just a stereo camera set that seems to be able to stop the car from running over objects at neighborhood speeds pretty reliably and apparently works pretty well as a full range stop and go ACC as well.

Autopilot was clearly worth the $3k I spent on it - actually, it was one of the features that brought me to Tesla - but I can see how paying $5k for initially worse performance and now about the same bothers people. Hopefully Tesla will start using some of the capabilities of the new system soon.

I don't think breaking TACC out separately is in Tesla's best interest - I think the extra money they'll make from folks who don't buy either now would be less than the money they'd lose com folks who buy AP now and would only buy TACC - and I think a lot of the folks who would only buy TACC don't understand what AP can do for them and would be missing out on something they'd want if they knew.
 

TT97

Active Member
Aug 6, 2017
2,178
3,003
Los Angeles
The misuse of terminology and misunderstanding related to it in this thread frustrate me greatly.

TACC - Traffic Aware Cruise Control - is unique to Tesla. To the best of my knowledge, no other manufacturer is using the same approach with sensor fusion between one radar and one or more cameras for Adaptive Cruise Control.

Saying Honda's TACC is the same as saying BMW's VTEC or Toyota's Quattro - they have systems to accomplish similar things, but they aren't the same and don't have the same performance.

Adaptive Cruise Controls (ACC) vary in features and performance a great deal. I was intrigued when Ford started offering ACC on the Fusion Titanium in about 2012 for around a grand. What I eventually realized is that it was an old first generation system - unable to handle stopping and starting or speeds below fifteen mph safely, let alone stopped cars.

Tesla's system may or may not be the best, but it is certainly up there. Mercedes uses several radars and a couple cameras, though it's not clear how much if any role the cameras have in Distronic ACC. Subaru has a remarkable unique system using just a stereo camera set that seems to be able to stop the car from running over objects at neighborhood speeds pretty reliably and apparently works pretty well as a full range stop and go ACC as well.

Autopilot was clearly worth the $3k I spent on it - actually, it was one of the features that brought me to Tesla - but I can see how paying $5k for initially worse performance and now about the same bothers people. Hopefully Tesla will start using some of the capabilities of the new system soon.

I don't think breaking TACC out separately is in Tesla's best interest - I think the extra money they'll make from folks who don't buy either now would be less than the money they'd lose com folks who buy AP now and would only buy TACC - and I think a lot of the folks who would only buy TACC don't understand what AP can do for them and would be missing out on something they'd want if they knew.

The Tesla is the 4th car I have owned with ACC (all of which you listed). For me, ACC essential in SoCal.

My first car was a Ford SHO. The system only works over 15 mph (and could not be engaged at stop). It worked great on open roads, however, absolutely useless in L.A. rush hour traffic as 15 mph is considered driving fast.

MB system works very similar to Tesla (both accelerate too quickly and brake too late). MB had lane keeping technology but was no where close to autosteer. It had a hard time keeping the lane on sharper turns, also, if you ignore the nags, the system would stop steering but did not stop (I always worried about having a medical issue and the system would just drive you straight into a wall without intervening). On the plus side, lane keeping was always active and did not need to be engaged separately (also took no additional effort to override).

My third car (which we still have) is Subaru with EyeSight. EyeSight ACC works great and the AEB is the best I have seen. The biggest issue is that the system does not work during sunrise/sunset if driving directly into the sun (a crucial time to have it). Also, the system beeps every time a car enters or leaves the ACC range which gets annoying very quickly.

All three system were an extra cost and all well worth the price (even Ford's).
 
Whether they can collect data is independent of whether you buy EAP.
That’s not entirely true. Important data like why did the human take over driving from autopilot in that specific situation will be a much smaller subset if youre only gathering the data from people who purchased it. I’m saying if the feature was included in say the PUP package or straight up free then more people would have EAP and Tesla would have more data. More data is better when dealing with AI so Tesla is limiting its dataset by charging $4k-$5k to join the beta program
 

TT97

Active Member
Aug 6, 2017
2,178
3,003
Los Angeles
That’s not entirely true. Important data like why did the human take over driving from autopilot in that specific situation will be a much smaller subset if youre only gathering the data from people who purchased it. I’m saying if the feature was included in say the PUP package or straight up free then more people would have EAP and Tesla would have more data. More data is better when dealing with AI so Tesla is limiting its dataset by charging $4k-$5k to join the beta program

That's wrong. Tesla can have their cars in "Shadow Mode" without having EAP on (or even purchased).

Tesla’s new Autopilot will run in ‘shadow mode’ to prove that it’s safer than human driving

But, before Teslas can start driving autonomously, the company needs to collect a lot of data to prove to customers (and regulators) that the technology is safe and reliable. So, the car will run Autopilot in “shadow mode” in order for Tesla to gather statistical data to show false positives and false negatives of the software. In shadow mode, the car isn’t taking any action, but it registers when it would have taken action. Then, if the Tesla is in an accident, the company can see if the autonomous mode would have avoided the accident (or the other way around, with the self-driving system potentially causing an accident).

It will record how the car would have acted if the computer was in control, including information about how the car might have avoided an accident (or caused one). That data would then be used to show “a material improvement in the accident rate over manually driven cars,” said Tesla CEO Elon Musk on a call with reporters today. “I think at that point regulators would be comfortable approving it.”
 
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That's wrong. Tesla can have their cars in "Shadow Mode" without having EAP on (or even purchased).

Tesla’s new Autopilot will run in ‘shadow mode’ to prove that it’s safer than human driving

But, before Teslas can start driving autonomously, the company needs to collect a lot of data to prove to customers (and regulators) that the technology is safe and reliable. So, the car will run Autopilot in “shadow mode” in order for Tesla to gather statistical data to show false positives and false negatives of the software. In shadow mode, the car isn’t taking any action, but it registers when it would have taken action. Then, if the Tesla is in an accident, the company can see if the autonomous mode would have avoided the accident (or the other way around, with the self-driving system potentially causing an accident).

It will record how the car would have acted if the computer was in control, including information about how the car might have avoided an accident (or caused one). That data would then be used to show “a material improvement in the accident rate over manually driven cars,” said Tesla CEO Elon Musk on a call with reporters today. “I think at that point regulators would be comfortable approving it.”
Very interesting and that makes sense. But it’s still missing out on information it could gather if thousands (think everyone) had autopilot and used it. Then it could have data on humans behind the wheel using AP and find out why they took over in a certain situation and not others. To me the value of the data is worth more than they’re charging people for AP
 

TT97

Active Member
Aug 6, 2017
2,178
3,003
Los Angeles
Very interesting and that makes sense. But it’s still missing out on information it could gather if thousands (think everyone) had autopilot and used it. Then it could have data on humans behind the wheel using AP and find out why they took over in a certain situation and not others. To me the value of the data is worth more than they’re charging people for AP

That's the beauty of Shadow Mode - it doesn't need people to have EAP active for it to work. The car can transmit what it would do if EAP was active (and as all the newer cars have the hardware already, it can do this for every car, not just the ones that have EAP purchased). If the driver's actions match what what the car would do if it was in control, they can mark that down as a successful action. If the driver's actions differ from what the car would do, then that scenario could be studied to see if the car made an error or if it was driver error.

Shadow Mode can be used on 100% of Teslas (that have the equipment), 100% of the time. Even if everyone had EAP, drivers would be using EAP just a percentage of the situations Shadow Mode can be active.
 

Swampgator

Active Member
Apr 27, 2016
1,580
3,579
Florida
I believe once the full EAP is ready and then full self driving available, Tesla will enable TACC for all cars.
It's not a "want a free thing" it's a need to be competitive in the market while still encouraging high EAP and FSD take rates. Also, soon advanced summon will be part of EAP, further separating it from TACC alone.
I think TACC is safety related and so do other automakers. And Elon believes safety related features should be standard and available to all buyers. They just can't make it standard until those other features roll out or the take rate will be too low for EAP and the company will not maintain profitability. And the folks who paid 5K for EAP would be pissed today if TACC were standard, but not so much once their car can drive by itself on the freeway and advance summon gives them the ability to call the car to pick them up in the rain outside of Publix. :D
 
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I'd pay an extra $1000 to be able to keep EAP but disable TACC and revert to a basic cruise control. I hate it.

Funny, I was thinking the same. I only like TACC in stop and go traffic because of it's ability to actually stop and resume with flow of traffic. But at freeway speeds, at least here in SoCal, it is so annoying. It always slams on the brakes whenever someone switches lanes in front of you. I found it so annoying that I rarely used it at freeway speeds unless it was wide open and few cars around.

Needless to say, on my Model 3, I did not purchase EAP and do not plan to ever pay for it.
 
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Tesla are still aiming for the $35K stripped down variant of the Model 3, so there isn't a cat-in-hell's chance of free TACC, or even cheap TACC.

It would be desirable for Tesla to split out TACC (plus simple Summon and TeslaCam) into a separate bundle for (say) US$2,200, especially once they stop requiring people to buy PUP.
 
Tesla are still aiming for the $35K stripped down variant of the Model 3, so there isn't a cat-in-hell's chance of free TACC, or even cheap TACC.

It would be desirable for Tesla to split out TACC (plus simple Summon and TeslaCam) into a separate bundle for (say) US$2,200, especially once they stop requiring people to buy PUP.

I don't think they will ever split it out as long as they have the number of people willing to shell out the full price for the complete package.

A side note though, TeslaCam is not part of the EAP, I don't have EAP and use the TeslaCam feature.
 
That. And look at the vote result on this very thread. I think Elon heard the vote LOL.

yeah, it seems those who don't like EAP are the minority. My wife wouldn't even let me use it when we were in the car together. Maybe it's my fault for using it a lot in the early days when it wasn't quite as good...In any case she hates it and told me if I buy her a Tesla, she does not want EAP on the car.
 
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Reactions: Big City
I believe once the full EAP is ready and then full self driving available, Tesla will enable TACC for all cars.
It's not a "want a free thing" it's a need to be competitive in the market while still encouraging high EAP and FSD take rates. Also, soon advanced summon will be part of EAP, further separating it from TACC alone.
I think TACC is safety related and so do other automakers. And Elon believes safety related features should be standard and available to all buyers. They just can't make it standard until those other features roll out or the take rate will be too low for EAP and the company will not maintain profitability. And the folks who paid 5K for EAP would be pissed today if TACC were standard, but not so much once their car can drive by itself on the freeway and advance summon gives them the ability to call the car to pick them up in the rain outside of Publix. :D
But everyone should understand that if Tesla ever "enables it for free" on all cars than those that paid $5K for it will demand refunds. Tesla has already set a very bad precedent with refunds on the performance package and this would be a much more compelling case for refund. That could have a significant financial costs to the company. A much better take would be to keep it as an expensive option or to include it for everyone and raise the price car by $5K.
 

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