Transport Evolved

[mpt]

Transport Evolved 39 - Electric Horse box

Join Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield from Electric Cars News and Reviews of Electric Vehicles - All Cars Electric and guests Michael Thwaite from the TeslaMotorsClub and Marc Geller from PluginAmerica as they discuss the week’s news in the world of green transport, electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, including a preview of the Geneva Auto Show, Electric Taxes and much more.

 

[mpt]

Transport Evolved 40 - Cute Little Bulli

Join Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield from AllCarsElectric.com and well-known EV advocate and advisor Chelsea Sexton as they discuss the week’s news in the world of electric vehicles, including the 2011 Geneva Motor Show, VW’s Electric Bulli Concept, Zero Motorcycle’s latest offering, the non-beeling Nissan Leafs and much more.

 

[mpt]

Transport Evolved 41 - Bots you dislike

Join Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield from AllCarsElectric.com and guests Michael Thwaite and Kevin Sharpe from TeslaMotorsClub as they discuss the week’s news in the world of electric vehicles,*including severe allegations of malpractice filled against BYD following a wikileaks posting, the price of a long-distance battery pack and much more.

 

[mpt]

Transport Evolved 42 - Aftermath

Join Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield from AllCarsElectric.com and guests Michael Thwaite and John Benjamin from TeslaMotorsClub as they discuss the week’s news in the world of electric vehicles, including discussing the impact of the japanese 9.0 earthquake and tsunami on the auto industry and people of Japan, BYD’s secret U.S. launch, Renault’s EV Espionage case and much more.

 

[JRP3]

They got to you? The Volt is a plug in hybrid. Nothing wrong with that but we do no favors by blurring the lines between the two. If someone mods a Prius with a larger battery pack and a plug that does not make it an electric car, it makes it a plug in hybrid, even if they only drive it using the battery most of the time. An electric car does not have a gas tank. If I add an ICE generator to my EV that does not make it an ICE either.

 

[qwk]

They got to you? The Volt is a plug in hybrid. Nothing wrong with that but we do no favors by blurring the lines between the two. If someone mods a Prius with a larger battery pack and a plug that does not make it an electric car, it makes it a plug in hybrid, even if they only drive it using the battery most of the time. An electric car does not have a gas tank. If I add an ICE generator to my EV that does not make it an ICE either.

I agree 100%.

You can thank GM's marketing team for that misinformation.

 

[dpeilow]

And their unpaid marketing team in SoCal...

 

[mpt]

I'll stand my ground. We all know and understand the technology so we can easily draw the line; we know that technically it's a hybrid and on the scale of hybrids it's something like a 50% EV and a 50% ICE car. Compared to the Prius, that, in my mind is a 10% EV & a 90% ICE car, why? Well, it only gets 10% of it's forward motion from the kind of electricity I consider clean. I don't mean by burning gas I mean from regenerative braking; what it gets from gas doesn't make it an EV, just an inefficient ICE ***.

So, from what I've heard from Volt owners here on the east coast is that they are trying to keep their cars running as long as they can on electricity. They & I think of them as an EV with just 40 miles of range.

Yes, they're lugging around a lot of extra weight, yes, they still need servicing & will fall back to gas when the owner fails to charge it. Let the people who buy them figure that out in time. I predict that many Volt owners' second car next time around will be a pure EV.

If we embrace them as a positive step forwards we'll get a lot more people whirring around on batteries.

And yes, the GM adverts about being American and taking the long way home... they make me gag.



*** Can anyone explain why the Prius and Insight charge their battery whilst cruising along, isn't that just extra effort from the ICE that would be better spent on pushing the car forwards?

 

[JRP3]

Calling it an EV ignores the added complexity and cost of building two systems into a vehicle and the associated maintenance involved with an ICE. At some point Volt owners will need an oil change for their "EV". The general public is confused enough, many think the Volt is a $40,000 EV with a poor 40 mile range, which hurts the image of all EV's. I see no benefit, and see real harm, in pretending the Volt is something it is not. It's not an EV, and it never will be unless they remove the ICE, gas tank, and exhaust, three things no EV ever has.

 

[dpeilow]

Let's call a spade a spade - it's a hybrid. The early adopters have probably followed developments and realise what is under the bonnet, but joe public are being told it's an EV when it isn't. I don't know whether GM are still pushing out that 230MPG line but people think they are getting something that generates electricity really efficiently when in range extended mode, whereas they are actually getting a 33MPG ICE.

 

[JRP3]

Plus even if you never drive beyond the EV only range the car will run the ICE to use up the gasoline so you don't end up with a tank full of sludge, or phase separated water, ethanol, and gasoline. If the car is in a wreck you have to worry about leaking fuel. What EV has to worry about a petroleum fire? Also, I had older trucks that I could move a few feet by cranking the starter while in gear, then plug in a charger to recharge the battery once it was in the garage. Were they EV's as well?

 

[mpt]

I guess my concern with spades is that the one I pick up is never quite right for the job. Too narrow, too heavy, too wide. Different spades for different jobs.

In the general vernacular hybrid=prius and thanks to Clarksonian junk that equals a failure. If we lump the Volt into that category then we'll be consigning it to stories of batteries that come from Canada and electricity that's dirtier than oil. I don't care to sell people on Prii much as, the hybrid that I sometimes borrow from ZipCar usually has been beaten down to less than 40mpg.

It's not a pure EV, I take that point that you can damage the purity of EVs by including the Volt.

Another category will add the the confusion (Bad news for electric cars: consumers dont understand them | VentureBeat)

So, it's not a hybrid, it's not a pure EV, it's not a new category and it is selling well.

Would you accept that it's an "EV with a gasoline engine to carry you further when you need it."?

 

[qwk]

Would you accept that it's an "EV with a gasoline engine to carry you further when you need it."?

The problem is that the ICE is coupled to the wheels, and you have no control of when/if it comes on. Many have reported it comong on due to low temps, speed, necessary cycling of the ICE....

If you wanted to drive it on PURE electricity for say 1 year, you cannot. The ICE will come on whether you like it or not. GM says that it's because of efficiency. I call it shoddy engineering.

If I gave you a $100 bill in play money for a service or goods, would you be happy? It's still a $100 bill. Gm has to tell the whole story, not just pick and choose the good parts of the car in order to sell it.

 

[mpt]

...I call it shoddy engineering.

I guess the test of GM's solution will be in the efficiency or lack there of, of the Fisker Karma, it has the more 'pure' approach that we'd prefer from a purely technical answer to a range extender. However, based on the experiences of this guy http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm it looks like old-fashioned piston engines are ultimately more efficient at turning fuel->movement than fuel->movement->electricity->movement.

 

[JRP3]

I guess my concern with spades is that the one I pick up is never quite right for the job. Too narrow, too heavy, too wide. Different spades for different jobs.

But you don't grab a rake when you need a spade, and you don't call a rake a spade.

In the general vernacular hybrid=prius and thanks to Clarksonian junk that equals a failure. If we lump the Volt into that category then we'll be consigning it to stories of batteries that come from Canada and electricity that's dirtier than oil.

Clarksonian junk considers the Roadster a failure so calling a Volt an EV doesn't really counter that logic.

So, it's not a hybrid, it's not a pure EV, it's not a new category and it is selling well.

Would you accept that it's an "EV with a gasoline engine to carry you further when you need it."?

No, EV's never have gasoline engins, it is a hybrid, it's a Plug in hybrid, PHEV, but still a hybrid. PHEV explains the difference quite clearly, a hybrid that allows you to plug in and get some range from electricity only. The very nature of the Volt will create some confusion, but that confusion will not be minimized by trying to characterize a PHEV as an EV. If GM had started by calling it a PHEV from the beginning there would be much less confusion and this entire discussion and many others just like it would never have taken place. Instead GM generated confusion by calling it an EV, then a REEV, or EREV, and who knows what else.

 

[vfx]

Shocking to see Michael outing himself on TV!

... We all know and understand the technology so we can easily draw the line...

That would be my exact argument why NOT to call it an EV. My EV friends here on the west coast are also proudly driving Volts on 90%+ electric mode. The point is telling people who don't get it. The technologically ignorant ones should not be decieved as to what they are buying.
It's like packing low calorie diet meal with a picture of a delicious plate full of food but putting in the fine print on the back that it's low calorie if you only eat a spoonful.

 

[vfx]

I don't know whether GM are still pushing out that 230MPG line

I don't think this is the case. When I meet people who are totally EV ignorant but know about the Volt, they largely think it is a 40 mile range EV.
Bad for GM and also bad for the progression of EVs since potential customers are stuck in that old thinking of that low miles is all an EV can do.


And I could also see calling the Volt a hybrid if for no other reason but it's easier for the public to relate to. (Though I bet 1/2 of them don't actually know what "hybrid" means beyond the now-diluted marketing hype of "better mileage").

 

[mpt]

Shocking to see Michael outing himself on TV!

Yes, I've been troubled with this for a long time, I recently realised that, I wasn't like normal EV folk, I was at a Volt meet and found myself drawn to the idea of the Volt, I knew it was wrong but I couldn't help myself. I believe that the Volt is not an abhorrence, it's just misunderstood!

At the green events last year there was a lot of interest in the EVs but that was mostly the end of it - and these are 'Green' people. When you throw in that the Volt has an engine, then, as I've seen, the next call you get is "I went down to the dealer and..." And that's where the real lessons get learnt, where the details come in after the interest is piqued.

In the little time that the general public commits to the study of alt-fuel cars we have to have a quick soundbite that captures what a Volt is and why it's not a Prius for which they already have their opinions. I'm still convinced that it's an "EV with a gasoline engine to carry you further when you need it." That is what it takes to get them to level 2.

 

[vfx]

By the way. The show this week seemed way too long for content offered.

 

[doug]

By the way. The show this week seemed way too long for content offered.

Haven't yet watched the latest show, but is that not usually the case?