Transport Evolved

[Norbert]

Would you accept that it's an "EV with a gasoline engine to carry you further when you need it."?

No. The gasoline engine doesn't come down from above like a guardian angel. The ICE is in there along with the fuel tank, all the time, and you pay for it when you buy it. If some nerds are able to use it almost as if it were an EV, that doesn't make it an EV. You can also use it as a 30 mpg ICE, and it's still the same car. If it has two motors, it's called a hybrid. If it can drive on electricity from a plug, it's called a plug-in hybrid. If it tries to call itself EV, then it tries to get a chunk of Tesla's halo. Is that clear enough?

 

[dpeilow]

^ hear, hear.

 

[Norbert]

^ hear, hear.

Even if a car had both a hydrogen fuel cell (which is not an engine) and a plug-chargeable battery, it still wouldn't be an "fuel-cell enhanced EV" (although that would be technically more accurate than "range-extended"). It would be a hybrid of a fuel cell car and an EV. An EV is not something you can drive with hydrogen, but that car you could. And if you operate an EV with a gas-powered generator in a trailer, you are not operating it as an EV anymore. The combination of both is not an EV. It's an EV with a gas-powered generator. The name "range-extended" is marketing goo, not a technical description of what you are paying for when you buy it.

 

[roblab]

*** Can anyone explain why the Prius and Insight charge their battery whilst cruising along, isn't that just extra effort from the ICE that would be better spent on pushing the car forwards?

Might be a little off topic, but this might help.
Most cars use what is called the Otto cycle engine. It is designed for rapid increase of rpms, and therefore torque, for accelerating from a stop, or for passing, or going up hills. And these are the times that the engine really sucks gas. Torque is what electric motors have, in spades or rakes or shovels. So, when Toyota built the Prius, with an electric motor to supply the torque when needed instead of a sucking gas engine, they were able to use a different spark and valve timing, called the Atkinson cycle, which optimizes fuel use on slow acceleration and stable rpms. On engine only, the car has much less torque, oomph, go, but the electric motor is used there, so the general cruising, AND charging are all done on the laid back A-cycle, when you only need about 10% of your engine's power to keep driving down the road AND charging.
Car engines are sized (and advertised) for max horsepower, liters, etc, which translates to "How fast will it go?" and "How quick is it?" I don't suppose there are very many who even know the size of the Prius engine (liters), or how much horsepower it has.

 

[vfx]

(with VFX mods)... The ICE and fuel tank are there all the time, and you pay for them when you buy it the car. If some nerds are able to use it almost as if it were an EV, that doesn't make it an EV. You can also use it as a 30 mpg ICE, and it's still the same car. If it has an engine and a motor, it's called a hybrid. If it can drive on electricity from a socket, it's called a plug-in hybrid. If it tries to call itself EV, then it tries to get a chunk of Tesla's halo. ...

Nicely put.

 

[mpt]

Most cars use what is called the Otto cycle engine...

Ah, so what you're saying is that the engine is reconfigured to be more efficient, producing less torque at low rpm because, as result of charging, it can 'bank' the needed torque ahead of time. That clears up a mystery that's been bugging me for a long time, thanks.

 

[TEG]

I don't suppose there are very many who even know the size of the Prius engine (liters), or how much horsepower it has.

Easy to look up though:
Toyota Prius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Third generation (XW30; 2009–present)
The 1.8-liter gasoline engine (previously 1.5 liters) generates 98 hp, and with the added power of the electric motor generates a total of 134 hp (previously 110 hp).
The larger engine displacement allows for increased torque, reducing engine speeds (RPM), which improves fuel economy at highway speeds.

It seems they decided the earlier generations didn't have enough torque... Even with eMotor assist...

 

[TEG]

By the way, old Mazda Millenia S used a similar engine configuration, except they used a supercharger instead of hybrid eMotor to make up for the torque characteristics.
"Atkinson cycle" + Supercharger = "Miller Cycle"
Miller cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[user497]

No. The gasoline engine doesn't come down from above like a guardian angel. The ICE is in there along with the fuel tank, all the time, and you pay for it when you buy it. If some nerds are able to use it almost as if it were an EV, that doesn't make it an EV. You can also use it as a 30 mpg ICE, and it's still the same car. If it has two motors, it's called a hybrid. If it can drive on electricity from a plug, it's called a plug-in hybrid. If it tries to call itself EV, then it tries to get a chunk of Tesla's halo. Is that clear enough?

It's funny, there is another thread where people are talking about towing a generator to extend range (Towable Generators). So are we saying a car is an EV if it tows the generator but it's not an EV if the generator is built in? I personally think a car is an EV if the only engine moving the wheels is the electric engine which is powered by the batteries. If there are solar panels or a generator or something else helping to recharge the batteries, it's still an EV (or an EV with benefits).

A Volt if $32k. Let's say the base car is $25k and the ICE part costs $7k. I can see some people just wanting to buy the car for $25k and use it as a 40-mile EV. Others may want to put an extra $7k towards the battery and get a $32k 80-mile EV. Whereas others may want to put the ICE generator and get a $32k unlimited mile EV (with only the first 40 pure electric). I personally think the ICE generator is an elegant solution to the range issue that will last a few years to help bridge us until the batteries get bigger, charge faster and there are more charging stations.

 

[TEG]

As soon as you hooked a generator trailer up to an EV it becomes a temporary hybrid.
Remove the trailer and you are back to EV. Many people would decide to never use the trailer option.

 

[JRP3]

If you take an ICE car and hook up a pusher trailer with batteries and an electric motor, and you use that to push the vehicle, that doesn't make the ICE an EV. Same thing for an EV with an ICE genset trailer, the EV doesn't become something else, the genset is not part of the vehicle. A vehicle with two built in drive and/or power systems is a hybrid. Nothing wrong with hybrids if that's what you need, but they aren't EV's, and they are more complex.

 

[Norbert]

Whereas others may want to put the ICE generator and get a $32k unlimited mile EV (with only the first 40 pure electric).

"Unlimited mile EV"? Is that a new marketing term?

 

[user497]

"Unlimited mile EV"? Is that a new marketing term?

You hadn't heard of the UMEV? The point I was trying to make is that there are really 2 questions: 1) Is the electric motor powering the wheels and 2) how are the batteries being recharged. For me, an EV is a car where the answer to the 1st question is yes. Whether you tow a generator, have it built into the car, use a gas powered generator at home or plug into the grid doesn't matter. As a consumer I would want to know whether or not the generator was built into the car or not and I would want the option to not have it (and perhaps spend the money the generator would have cost towards a bigger battery or just save the difference). So it does make sense to have a different acronym for an EV without a generator and an EV with a generator. The term "hybrid" can mean so many things that it is not very useful in this context. It seems like "REEV" is also not applicable in this case because the "extended range" could be accomplished different ways. It seems that the term "series hybrid" (see Hybrid vehicle drivetrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is the most applicable. The larger point is that I would like to see car companies focusing more on EVs and "series hybrid" instead of the "parallel hybrids".

 

[Norbert]

The larger point is that I would like to see car companies focusing more on EVs and "series hybrid" instead of the "parallel hybrids".

In so far as your last sentence implies that a "series hybrid" and an EV are not the same, I find it quite agreeable.

As for the first part of your message, "EV" doesn't mean "Electric Motor", it means "Electric Vehicle". I find it inconceivable to interpret that term other than that the car is being fed with electricity from the outside. It seems just wrong to have to qualify that term by saying something like "Plug-in EV". At that point I'd be tempted to say you have been listening to GM (or Fisker) marketing speak too much.

It's also a big difference if you tow a generator that is not part of the vehicle itself, or if it is built in, just like there is a difference between towing a boat (even if the boat allows you to drive the vehicle onto the boat), and having an "Amphibious Vehicle". That's just common sense, isn't it?

 

[mpt]

Transport Evolved 44 - StopGear

Join Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield from AllCarsElectric.com and Michael Thwaite from TeslaMotorsClub with guests Myra Pasek from Tesla Motors and Mike Boxwell from The Electric Car Guide as they discuss the week’s news in the world of green vehicles including Tesla’s legal battle with the BBC, a range extending engine from Lotus, the battle for a new type of electric car and much more.

 

[vfx]

Top Gear and Robert Lewellyn excel at imagery so I watch them.
TE is more like radio with pictures. It's mostly background listening so please mention if you are showing a car picture and I can run or click-over to see what you are showing.

 

[mpt]

I wonder if we could embed links in the program stream, certainly worth a look. I know that it can be done on YouTube.

 

[vfx]

I wonder if we could embed links in the program stream, certainly worth a look. I know that it can be done on YouTube.

Maybe an unobtrusive tone when a picture comes up.

 

[JRP3]

Congrats on the promotion to host. Something happened to your sound though, it lagged the video by quite a bit.

 

[mpt]

Congrats on the promotion to host. Something happened to your sound though, it lagged the video by quite a bit.

Thanks! I hope to get better; a lot better, that episode felt like a learner driver try trying to get the hang of clutch control whilst balancing a full glass of wine on my nose.

My audio was a disaster, Nikki & I are working on that trying to debug what happened. We use Skype and suspect that may be the root of the problem coupled to some incidental microphone positioning problems. This is harder than I thought.