Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[Lanzer]

Story time!

I once rode on a private jet with our company's investor who's some big shot at a famous VC firm for a meeting with a potential company they wanted to invest in. Our plane landed at the airport and there was a nice convertible on the pavement waiting for us. The investor then drove this rental to the restaurant where we're having our meeting, but instead of taking the valet, he circled around the restaurant for 10 minutes looking parking. "I hate the notion of having to pay for something that should be free", he said.

I have a smirk every time I think back at the whole scenario where someone would pay 20k for a jet, have a rental car paid for and ready, but then still have an issue over a few dollars of intrinsic value.

i understand that supercharging could and should have been cheaper, but I also can't ignore the fact that we're each driving a 60,000 dollar state of the art vehicle where we get to save thousands on fueling cost by charging at home, as well as a bundle in maintenance cost down the road.

Tesla probably want to keep their charging cost low, but then they wanted to spend 12 billion dollars in capital expenditures in the next 2 years, and having a healthy balance sheet is now more of an issue because of such lofty goals. Not quite sure if anyone will see that as an excuse for the high cost in charging, but personally, I really want to see Tesla kick ass in the next 5 years.
(full disclosure - I'm a TSLA stock owner

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

I wonder why someone with a twin turbo mercedes, a corvette and a tesla is worried about supercharging prices...

I’m not worried about the cost as in I can’t afford it. I’m just surprised supercharging is more expensive than driving my pickup. My MX and MS both had free supercharging so this is the first time I’ve experienced the cost and it shocked me. I can understand what others have said regarding demand electricity rates, I just didn’t think it would be that high.

One of the selling points of Tesla is the “fuel savings” of several thousand dollars on their configurator. I feel that leads people to believe it will always be cheaper than gas. (Obviously it’s cheaper charging at home in the middle of the night). But Tesla sure isn’t saying superchargers are MORE expensive than buying fuel in a relatively comparable car. (Yes, the BMW a previous gentleman mentioned and my Mercedes ARE comparable cars)

THAT is my only observation and certainly seems to be true. I”m not here to argue about what’s more fun to drive, etc. That becomes personal preference and is likely different for everyone. Out of pocket expense is the same for everyone and that is all I’m commenting on.

I feel it’s pertinent as those of us who love our Tesla’s try to convince more people to own them. I have personally driven coast to coast and back in my MS and people were amazed that I didn’t pay for fuel, makes people want one, LOL. If I did the same thing in my M3 but paid a few hundred (rough calculation) more in fuel than driving my Mercedes, it certainly wouldn’t be a selling point.

 

[glide]

I thought Tesla said they wouldn’t make the superchargers a profit center? After paying $14.56 for driving 140 miles from home charger to Supercharger and topping off, I realized it would have been cheaper to drive my pickup. At the current cost of fuel which is $2.25 per gallon here this equates to an ICE getting 21.5mpg. Not too impressive. A regular car comparable to a Model 3 would easily get 30mpg, probably more like 35-40mpg.

Are the supercharger rates here in Montana just excessively high, or is that the normal across the nation.
Makes me really miss free supercharging....

Tesla not telling the truth? Get out!

Just like Service centers, they need to be making money in order to continue operating.

 

[MrMassTransit]

Demand charges are expensive. I highly doubt Tesla is profiting.

That, and building infrastructure is expensive. Even if Supercharging is merely a break-even venture, they need to pay back the cost to install the equipment. When I installed level 2 charging in my outdoor condo parking space, it cost me almost $5k (before credits/deductions, which were admittedly substantial). That involved a run of about 90 feet from the meter, half in conduit and half in a trench. Trenching, in particular, is expensive.

That's for a 240v wall connector! Given the scope of work, most superchargers probably cost $200k-$400k to install and some ongoing cost to maintain. There's also rent payments to the site to account for. If you compare Tesla's rates against networks that truly generate a profit (like EVGO), Tesla charges significantly less.

As to a comparison again driving your truck, well, that's why we need carbon pricing. When you can externalize the cost of pollution, a lot of things become artificially cheaper!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

It's always likely to be more expensive, especially in a low-density state where usage is relatively low.
Don't be fooled by the "profit center" talk. That's just an accounting term. Just because it's not a profit center, doesn't mean they don't care about income and costs.

 

[Stars_Fan]

I find it funny when people start talking about "a comparable gas car gets 30 MPG" as if a comparable gas car to a Model 3 is a prius or a toyota corrola, not the "sports sedans" that they are actually comparable to. Model 3s compare with BMW 3 series, Audi A4s, Mercedes C class, etc.

They are not in the "same class" with most cars that get 30 MPG because no car that gets 30mpg does 0-60 in 5.X seconds like a model 3 does (even the slowest one).

(I am agreeing with you... I just quoted your post to piggy back and agree with it).

2018 Accord Touring is a mid 5 second car and gets 30mpg.

 

[Danny Brown]

Anecdotal story:

Early October Trip, AL->VA->CT; CT->VA->AL.

Northbound hotel, got ~50 kWhr free from hotel
In CT I pulled ~50 kWhr "free" from my family's NEMA 5-15
Southbound hotel had a SpC, so it was part of my regular charging costs

2019 P3D (with 18s & cargo pod)
Total Trip SC'ing: $156
Total Miles: 2400
My cost/mile: 6.5-cents/mile
"Freebie" electricity, should I have pulled it from a SpC instead: 100 kWhr @ 0.28/per = +$28
Gross electricity costs: $184 (7.7-cents/mile)

If we had taken wife's car (2019 Honda Odyssey):
Average mileage (skew towards highway): 24
Average regular gas: $2.10
total cost: $210 (8.6-cents/mile)

I was surprised how much it costs in states that charge SpC's by kWhr. By comparison, I could do MUCH better charging in a Per-Minute state. It's worth mentioning I do optimize highway travel charging profiles (always show up ~10% remaining to pull max kW, charge only enough to hit next charger ~150 miles away, etc).

I generally agree with the OP: SpC'ing can be more expensive than gasoline. Or it can be less.

 

[SSedan]

> 90% of a homeowner's EV recharging costs are the nighttime $/kWh rate.
An EV, ANY EV, is cheaper to refuel than any ICE. This assumes you put a value on your time when driving to a gas station.
The convenience alone is worth it to me.

A lot of us live in places where TOU rates make no sense, don't pretend everyone lives in Cali.

LOL, and this is about typical. I’m not arguing about charging at home being cheaper, I’m not arguing about performance. If I was I would say my twin turbo Mercedes and my supercharged Corvette are both right there or better. The Mercedes and the Vette are both upper 20’s for fuel mileage, so YES, a comparable performance car is just as economical as SUPERCHARGING. And the Mercedes is certainly more comfortable and MUCH quieter. But I digress as I’m not trying to start a my car is better than your car thread. I have 8 vehicles and I enjoy all of them for various reasons.

My entire point is I feel Tesla is charging more than they should for supercharging, especially since they said they didn’t want superchargers to be revenue centers.

To the gentleman who asked about conditions, this was clear roads and about 30 degree temperature. Yes I know temp affects efficiency etc. as you can see in my sig I’ve been driving Tesla’s for awhile.

To the gentleman saying superchargers aren’t meant for commuting... UMM just how the hell DO you get from one place to another WITHOUT supercharging when the car doesn’t have the range to make it on a single charge? (I made a 340 mile trip, obviously the Model 3 isn’t going to do that on a single charge)

Commuting is usually understood to mean daily or routine not road trips.
As someone successful enough to own so many vehicles I would expect a little more comprehension of the cost of doing business.
Scouting costs.
Construction costs.
Land lease.
All before electricity costs.

Now you have a say 6 stall location that even if we say only cost $100k to build which I think we all agree is lowballed.
At $15 per visit the station would need to see 18.26 cars per day for a year to break even if the electricity was free and there were zero ongoing costs and the CC company waived processing fees.

So how much exactly do you think this is a profit center?

Maybe some in Cali where they are busy but Montana, betting it doesn't average 18 cars a day.

 

[Puma2020]

My entire point is I feel Tesla is charging more than they should for supercharging, especially since they said they didn’t want superchargers to be revenue centers.

Electrek just posted an article are supercharging and rates. Thought I'd mention it as it had some interesting details such as
"Electrify America told Electrek that some utilities charge them as much as $30 to $40 per kW in demand charges, and if some vehicles can charge at over 200 kW, you can imagine that the cost can be quite high."

Tesla tests Supercharger limited time discounts to offset expensive peak demand charges - Electrek

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

It's always likely to be more expensive, especially in a low-density state where usage is relatively low.
Don't be fooled by the "profit center" talk. That's just an accounting term. Just because it's not a profit center, doesn't mean they don't care about income and costs.

A lot of us live in places where TOU rates make no sense, don't pretend everyone lives in Cali.



Commuting is usually understood to mean daily or routine not road trips.
As someone successful enough to own so many vehicles I would expect a little more comprehension of the cost of doing business.
Scouting costs.
Construction costs.
Land lease.
All before electricity costs.

Now you have a say 6 stall location that even if we say only cost $100k to build which I think we all agree is lowballed.
At $15 per visit the station would need to see 18.26 cars per day for a year to break even if the electricity was free and there were zero ongoing costs and the CC company waived processing fees.

So how much exactly do you think this is a profit center?

Maybe some in Cali where they are busy but Montana, betting it doesn't average 18 cars a day.

Sir, it appears you just want to argue, have at it, but it will be with someone else. The term “commuting” is something YOU brought up and is actually quite irrelevant to my point that supercharging is more expensive than driving an ICE vehicle.

Like you said, “as someone who owns so many vehicles blah blah”. You’re correct, I DO understand business. Which again is pretty irrelevant. I simply used the term “profit center” as that IS the term Elon used years ago when referring to his superchargers. I’m not here to argue about the dollars and cents of what it costs to install an operate a supercharger.

My point was and still is SUPERCHARGING IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN DRIVING MOST ICE VEHICLES HERE IN MONTANA. I was also simply asking if that is the same in other states.

Good day!

 

[SageBrush]

To the gentleman saying superchargers aren’t meant for commuting... UMM just how the hell DO you get from one place to another WITHOUT supercharging when the car doesn’t have the range to make it on a single charge?

Clue: charge at home so that only a fraction of your trip miles are DCFC

I feel Tesla is charging more than they should for supercharging, especially since they said they didn’t want superchargers to be revenue centers

Would you like to support your assertion with evidence that Superchargers have become a profit center ?

 

[Pwdr Extreme]

Clue??? LOL! FACT! How do you charge at home when you are traveling more than ~250 miles??? (yes, I know if the first “tank full” was done at home at a cheaper charging rate divided into how many “tank fulls” you have to fill with supercharging divided by the lower cost of charging at your destination hotel, multiplied by the square root of Pi, blah blah)

Maybe I can just travel by your house and stop and charge for free? That will really help offset the cost of charging. LOL

Yes, I’m joking.

Good grief, some people just want to argue.

Ah, the fun of a forum.....

 

[Puma2020]

To the gentleman saying superchargers aren’t meant for commuting... UMM just how the hell DO you get from one place to another WITHOUT supercharging when the car doesn’t have the range to make it on a single charge? (I made a 340 mile trip, obviously the Model 3 isn’t going to do that on a single charge)

Drive slower? I saw this chart a while ago and am posting it for everyone's viewing pleasure.
Range is a function of battery capacity and speed driven.
Of course, the reason you have a Tesla and not a Prius is that you are probably not inclined to got 55 mph on a highway that has speed limits of 80 mph (I believe in MT).
But you could make the 340 mile trip on a single charge, if you really had to.

 

[SageBrush]

I’m just surprised supercharging is more expensive than driving my pickup.

YMMV, but in my case Supercharging is ~ 10% of my miles. I don't care about corner cases, I pay attention to my average fuel cost per distance and it is a LOT less than any ICE you care to mention, let alone 25 mpg monstrosities. When Covid is over and fossil prices return to $3 - $4 a gallon it will be that much more true.

 

[SageBrush]

Good grief, some people just want to argue.

And others just want to whine.

Why even mention a corner case, true during Covid ?

 

[SlimJim]

I go ROFLMAO whenever I see this.

 

[stonelance]

I think it is probably important to remember that $2.25 for a gallon of gas is pretty cheap... While it is currently slightly more than the national average, it is still far below the average was last year. I'm sure that is only a temporary situation and it will go back up. Meanwhile, I totally expect electricity prices to fall as the costs of solar, wind and storage continue to drop, and more of it gets installed.

If you only supercharged, then I'm sure there is not much cost benefit. For a lot of people, most of their mileage is charged at home. Depending on where they live that could still be comparable to super charging, but for most people it is probably a lot cheaper.

 

[duanra]

The point was to show that Supercharging while convenient is not cheap. The OP is right. Now to argue whether or not overall cost is higher is beside the point.

Anyhow, we all know that nobody bought a Tesla to save money

 

[SageBrush]

The point was to show that Supercharging while convenient is not cheap. The OP is right.

The OP is wrong because that is not what he said

After paying $14.56 for driving 140 miles from home charger to Supercharger and topping off, I realized it would have been cheaper to drive my pickup.

His argument is flawed because he has a full battery at home charging prices after the Supercharger use.

It is silly to argue with reality: For the vast majority of Tesla drivers in N. America the cost of fuel to drive is a blend of Supercharger and destination charge rates. As for Cpt. Obvious -- yes, a Supercharger mile in the winter during the Covid depression of oil prices can reach ~ the same price as an ICE mile

 

[KenC]

Not surprised that supercharging is more expensive than gas. Way back when, I did the calculations and it came out that charging at home, 14c/kWh was similar to paying $1/gal in my BMW. Now, superchargers are double what I pay at home, and gas is just over $2, so they're in the same ballpark. If your State superchargers charge more than what I get charged in Maine, about 24-28c/kWh, then you're probably paying more to supercharge. No surprise there.

Sure, it's disappointing that supercharging has gotten more expensive, but the advantage for Tesla is the availability of the supercharging network allowing you to drive almost anywhere, where competing EVs still have to use fragmented slow networks with the high risk of finding broken or down terminals. So, I'm glad we have a mostly functional supercharging network, even if it costs me as much if not more than a comparable ICE. A comparable EV is still not really practical for anywhere travel, as far as I'm concerned.

Elon's promises? They don't mean all that much.