Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[Daniel in SD]

Try going 300 miles or more on 3 gallons of gas on any ICE car.

Volkswagen XL1. 2.6 gallon tank. 240mpg (I think this is NEDC cycle though). Diesel, so 40.7kWh per gallon. They only made 250 of them though.

 

[BrokerDon]

I'm a little confused. What are the rates for businesses that use more than 20kW of power peak? SCE rates allow them to add Demand Charges if we exceed 20kW more than 3time a year. These would increase our bill and kWh rate 50% to 100%

How will solar reduce demand charges? One cloudy hour on a hot day and you're screwed. We typically near our 20kW Demand limit when its HOT... which is SUNNY in SoCal. On the few days its cloudy here its not HOT. We've also got all 3 of our high efficiency variable speed HVAC units on Ecobee Smart Thermostats with Smart Sensors monitoring every room for temperature AND occupancy (empty room temps ignored). These are enrolled in Ecobee's SmartBuildings web based smart HVAC management program: SmartBuildings Smart Wi-Fi Thermostats by ecobee which allows us to have our 3 HVACs set to "stagger start" avoiding our 20kW Demand threshold.

Also, workplace charging could work if you just limit it to the times with 16c rate (which is most of regular work hours). Yes but that would require switching OFF the 48A 208V (SCE commercial is 3-phase power) Tesla Wall Charger on a schedule... which to my knowledge require an expen$ive 3-phase 60A 240V remote controlled circuit breaker... and frustration from the EV users when their charging shut off at 4:00 PM... or earlier during a SCE declared Demand Response ("DR") event.

No doubt CA electricity is super expensive. I'm sure some of it has to do with freeloaders like me who use the grid for free because of roof top solar.

Correct! The more solar "freeloaders" increase the higher the kWh cost. We're excited to join the "freeloaders" in December when our $42,000 / 14.8kW DC SunPower solar system comes online.

BIGGEST block to workplace solar is the LOW % of employees who have EVs... and the HIGH cost to install EV chargers at businesses since most parking areas don't adjoin the electric Main Service Panel. Most homes are different since the electric panel is in / near the garage so adding EV charging in homes is much less expensive per EV charger than commercial.

 

[Redbrick]

I thought Tesla said they wouldn’t make the superchargers a profit center? After paying $14.56 for driving 140 miles from home charger to Supercharger and topping off, I realized it would have been cheaper to drive my pickup. At the current cost of fuel which is $2.25 per gallon here this equates to an ICE getting 21.5mpg. Not too impressive. A regular car comparable to a Model 3 would easily get 30mpg, probably more like 35-40mpg.

Are the supercharger rates here in Montana just excessively high, or is that the normal across the nation.
Makes me really miss free supercharging....

Interesting. I've never thought of this car as a great long distance driver. It's more of an intown driver. For long distance driving, I use my apocalypse lexus....more comfortable and definitely gives better mileages considering what it can haul.

 

[jimmym1981]

Interesting. I've never thought of this car as a great long distance driver. It's more of an intown driver. For long distance driving, I use my apocalypse lexus....more comfortable and definitely gives better mileages considering what it can haul.

I agree. Any trip more than 500-600 miles is rouger in my Tesla and we take the Volvo. A 9 hour trip turns into 11-11.5 hours in a Tesla. The stops now take up too much time for charging, the SuperCharger costs add up more than gas, and the constant "stay within * speed to make destination" is frustrating at time. I love our Tesla and its great for a small trip, but most of the time when we head long distances, we take the Volvo.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I have seen utility schedules that have one commercial tariff for peak loads below 'x' kW and and a different tariff above 'x' kW
It is supposed to reflect the cost of a larger transformer

It's common.

Rates & Pricing Choices

SCE - Document Library

Looks like they're on one of the options under TOU-GS-1, which is limited to 20kW. Then they get hit hard if they exceed 20kW, maybe because they fall under a different option, or they have special demand charges..

GS-2 is 20kW to 200kW and has demand charges.

Solar should help. Panels generate even on a cloudy day.

 

[nwdiver]

I agree. Any trip more than 500-600 miles is rouger in my Tesla and we take the Volvo. A 9 hour trip turns into 11-11.5 hours in a Tesla. The stops now take up too much time for charging, the SuperCharger costs add up more than gas, and the constant "stay within * speed to make destination" is frustrating at time. I love our Tesla and its great for a small trip, but most of the time when we head long distances, we take the Volvo.

To each his own I suppose; I regularly drive from NM to WA in my Tesla. I find it far more relaxing and convenient than my old fools fuel burning TDI. Driving for 9 hours without ~2 hours of breaks dispersed in the trip is stressful and generally a bad idea. If you have a newer Tesla you're stoping for ~20 minutes every ~2 hours which is ~perfect.

With regards to cost you need to account for the ~full 'tank' you're leaving with that cost ~$0.10/kWh not the higher SC rates. AND the fact that it's fairly easy to find a hotel that will fill you up for free. AND the fact that when you return home you can again fill up for ~$0.10/kWh;

Then there's the obvious reality that only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist. As a general rule I do my best to avoid that behavior....

 

[SSonnentag]

To each his own I suppose; I regularly drive from NM to WA in my Tesla. I find it far more relaxing and convenient than my old fools fuel burning TDI. Driving for 9 hours without ~2 hours of breaks dispersed in the trip is stressful and generally a bad idea.

With regards to cost you need to account for the ~full 'tank' you're leaving with that cost ~$0.10/kWh not the higher SC rates. AND the fact that it's fairly easy to find a hotel that will fill you up for free. AND the fact that when you return home you can again fill up for ~$0.10/kWh;

Then there's the obvious reality that only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist. As a general rule I do my best to avoid that behavior....

I, too, find Tesla trips much more enjoyable. Even without the welcome charging breaks, AP alone makes the trip so much more relaxing.

 

[BrokerDon]

It's common.

Rates & Pricing Choices

SCE - Document Library

Looks like they're on one of the options under TOU-GS-1, which is limited to 20kW. Then they get hit hard if they exceed 20kW, maybe because they fall under a different option, or they have special demand charges..

GS-2 is 20kW to 200kW and has demand charges.

Solar should help. Panels generate even on a cloudy day.

EXACTLY what our situation is. Our business is on TOU-GS-1 which is limited to 20kW. Then we get hit hard if they exceed 20kW 3 times in a year.

Solar will AbSoFreakinLutely help. Solar panels generate power even on a cloudy days... especially SunPower panels. We have a 327W SunPower solar panel on our Winnebago View (Mercedes Sprinter chassis) RV and it is amazing how much power it produces on cloudy days. 45,000 miles on our RV but only 50 hours on our generator. Our SunPower solar panel produced most of our RV's 12V DC power.

 

[tintinfish]

The post is about "Traveling by supercharger more expensive than ICE" not "Charging at home is cheaper than charging at a supercharger"

gdi people

 

[BrokerDon]

The post is about "Traveling by supercharger more expensive than ICE" not "Charging at home is cheaper than charging at a supercharger"

gdi people

Good point.

However most Tesla owners are clueless what Tesla pays for power as a commercial customer... Especially here in crazy high kWh CA where Tesla is almost assuredly losing MILLION$ at their current Supercharger rates.

 

[Joshan]

If Biden wins revisit this math when the fuel subsidies are removed and gas is $6-$8 a gallon and SCs cost remains the same.

 

[SageBrush]

The post is about "Traveling by supercharger more expensive than ICE" not "Charging at home is cheaper than charging at a supercharger"

Except traveling is a blend of destination and Supercharger use in the vast majority of cases.
Read the OP example, it is clearly a blend and the inference that all the miles of the trip were Supercharger miles was wrong and disingenuous.

So skip the trip garbage. It is true that a Supercharger mile can be more expensive than an ICE mile in certain cases. STOP THE PRESSES

 

[Phlier]

I wonder why someone with a twin turbo mercedes, a corvette and a tesla is worried about supercharging prices...

IME, most all affluent people got that way by paying attention to such details.

My grandfather was the biggest miser you've ever seen. Used to split the plies apart on toilet paper. Drove ancient cars. Lived in the same house for 50 years. And he was worth 8 million USD the day he died (1981). We found shares of AT&T stock (in certificate form) in one of his storage trunks.

Getting wealthy isn't the hard part. The hard part is staying wealthy. And, IMO, people that mind costs like the OP does have a far greater chance of hanging on to accumulated wealth; if you perceive the value of a one dollar bill differently as a successful, middle aged professional than you did as a broke college kid, you're most likely doing it wrong (Warren Buffett has written a lot of really good stuff about this subject. Definitely worth reading).

Back on topic...

Yeah, it's a bit discouraging to see supercharger pricing go up so dramatically. I think it's time to ping Elon with a reminder about him stating they weren't going to use superchargers as profit generators.

 

[nwdiver]

If Biden wins revisit this math when the fuel subsidies are removed and gas is $6-$8 a gallon and SCs cost remains the same.

The biggest effect is going to be when production from some of the shale wells drops off and the oil companies can't get a loan for a pencil to restore production. Wall street has subsidized oil more in the past decade than the government has. Hopefully that's coming to an end.

Money-losing fracking industry struggling to attract new investment

superchargers as profit generators.

I'd love to see some $ in / $ out for the SC network to actually quantify that but I seriously doubt it's a profit center. I know here in NM Xcel now charges ~$15/kW in the summer. So if 1 car charges at 200kW their bill is $3k for the month. They need to charge ~75 cars from empty to full at $0.40/kWh just to break even on demand fees. That's not counting the cost of electricity or infrastructure.

 

[Redbrick]

To each his own I suppose; I regularly drive from NM to WA in my Tesla. I find it far more relaxing and convenient than my old fools fuel burning TDI. Driving for 9 hours without ~2 hours of breaks dispersed in the trip is stressful and generally a bad idea. If you have a newer Tesla you're stoping for ~20 minutes every ~2 hours which is ~perfect.

With regards to cost you need to account for the ~full 'tank' you're leaving with that cost ~$0.10/kWh not the higher SC rates. AND the fact that it's fairly easy to find a hotel that will fill you up for free. AND the fact that when you return home you can again fill up for ~$0.10/kWh;

Then there's the obvious reality that only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist. As a general rule I do my best to avoid that behavior....

....finding a hotel that lets you charge for free is not a fact...(not assured). stopping for 20min every 2hrs....shoot....waste of time....where's that coffee can?

 

[nwdiver]

....finding a hotel that lets you charge for free is not a fact.... stopping for 20min every 2hrs....shoot....waste of time....where's that coffee can?

I said 'it's fairly easy'... do you even plugshare bro?

IMHO driving safe isn't a 'waste of time'...

 

[SageBrush]

So if 1 car charges at 200kW their bill is $3k for the month. They need to charge ~75 cars from empty to full at $0.40/kWh just to break even on demand fees.

I obviously agree with your point, I am just nitpicking a little here ..
250 kW
Say 40 kwh a stop per car because Tesla drivers know how to optimize their charging
(15*250)/(40*.4) = 234 cars a month

That's not counting the cost of electricity or infrastructure.

Yep, or installation or upkeep or rent ..

 

[jimmym1981]

To each his own I suppose; I regularly drive from NM to WA in my Tesla. I find it far more relaxing and convenient than my old fools fuel burning TDI. Driving for 9 hours without ~2 hours of breaks dispersed in the trip is stressful and generally a bad idea. If you have a newer Tesla you're stoping for ~20 minutes every ~2 hours which is ~perfect.

With regards to cost you need to account for the ~full 'tank' you're leaving with that cost ~$0.10/kWh not the higher SC rates. AND the fact that it's fairly easy to find a hotel that will fill you up for free. AND the fact that when you return home you can again fill up for ~$0.10/kWh;

Then there's the obvious reality that only morons and monsters use fools fuel where alternatives exist. As a general rule I do my best to avoid that behavior....

We do not have home charging, so its SuperCharging all the time when we need to use the Tesla, so for me its the same cost leaving and returning. My argument isn't that it isn't enjoyable to take a trip in the Tesla, sometimes time is money outside of taking time out for charging. My wife and I take turns and usually do 12 hours in a day if we go somewhere. It's just "easier" in the Volvo vs the Tesla for trips that long...all fossil fuels aside.

 

[nwdiver]

We do not have home charging, so its SuperCharging all the time when we need to use the Tesla,

Yeah... that's a problem; What's the barrier to getting charging where you park at night? Anything is better than nothing...

 

[jimmym1981]

Yeah... that's a problem; What's the barrier to getting charging where you park at night? Anything is better than nothing...

We live in a high rise with an old board of directors that like to keep 10m in the bank for "just in case" and are behind on the times. The good news is there are about 4 Teslas in the garage now and one of the owners is on the board now and that is his main focus. The SuperCharger is literally 1/2 mile down the road in our grocery store garage, so charging isn't really bad at all. We took that into account when buying the Tesla and knew it would be a semi pain at first.

Perfect example of the trip that I really want to take in the Tesla, but time is just not on our side...Recently had a family member pass and we need to get from Chicago > New Orleans for the funeral next week. Problem is plane tickets are almost $800 each and we still do not know the exact date with the hurricane so hard to buy. The wife is in the service industry and would have to move a lot of clients for a single day extra, so overnight is hard. I have the freedom to work remote, but at a limited case because of a current project. Long story short, normally the Volvo does the trip in 12.5 hours with 1 fillup. I plugged in the Tesla and its about 15.5-16 hours and we really cant stop overnight to split it up. If it was just me and work wasn't an issue, I would do it without question.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make. A normal 12 hour trip isn't bad but adding the charging in and almost 3-4 hours more makes it a day longer.