Traveling by Supercharger can be more expensive than ICE

[SageBrush]

your PHEV would have to do close to 100 mpg

You have to appreciate the 'reasoning'

PHEVs reduce MPG, and thus carbon emissions, by substituting fossils with electricity
BUT electricity is dirtier than fossils.

Hmmmmm.....

 

[dmurphy]

nickage87 is a troll. please don't feed...

Excellent possessive form use though. Would’ve awarded bonus points for spelling, but sadly “finilized” cost them the gold.

 

[AmokTime]

My energy cost is what I pay at the gas station. This is finilized cumulative price for all work and logistics that has been done.
EV production is worse for emissions. There is no way to recycle the batteries, and child labor is used for digging rare materials for batteries.

Batteries can be recycled. Don’t know if you’ve been following the news, but there is a new EV battery recycling company that was started by a former Tesla co-founder JB Straubel. He was quoted as saying there is no degradation of the lithium, cobalt, or nickel atoms in the batteries, and it can all be recycled endlessly - that means there will be a much lower demand for these metals once the recycle loop is primed. Also, Tesla has recently entered the lithium business on US soil in Nevada - there definitely won’t be any child labor on our shores. I wouldn’t bet against Elon being successful in this. And they are on the verge of eliminating cobalt.

 

[AmokTime]

I have no idea why you are engaging the troll, but fwiw MPGe is not a surrogate for carbon emissions. it cannot be used in that manner.

Why not ?

• No attempt is made to quantify the lifecycle carbon emissions of the energy used

If you are comparing ICE to ICE then the carbon emissions related to the production of the energy used may be unknown but it does matter since they are presumed equal. No such assumption is reasonable when an ICE is compared to an EV

Yes - this. All we are really comparing in most of the tail end of this thread when we discuss the mileage is cost. We are simplifying the discussion by looking at how they compare in $/mile instead of pounds CO2/mile, because $/mile is easier to compute.

 

[SageBrush]

Yes - this. All we are really comparing in most of the tail end of this thread when we discuss the mileage is cost. We are simplifying the discussion by looking at how they compare in $/mile instead of pounds CO2/mile, because $/mile is easier to compute.

You make a good point -- the only reason we can calculate $/mile between the cars is because we recognize the need to first declare a cost/kWh for electricity and a cost/kWh for fossil fuels.

 

[15Peter20]

My energy cost is what I pay at the gas station. This is finilized cumulative price for all work and logistics that has been done.
EV production is worse for emissions. There is no way to recycle the batteries, and child labor is used for digging rare materials for batteries.

Most of the cobalt extracted annually is used to refine oil into vehicle fuels.

 

[one2many]

OK now that this mess is behind us, can we get back to
the topic at hand. I think in the court of public opinion we
have more than enough data or opinions to make up our
minds. AND yes if I could go into the "wayback" machine before
this post I would. Now maybe we should get a strong drink and
hang out in the crash posts, they at least have pictures.

 

[S&B's M3]

And cars with similar performance require high octane fuel.

And regular maintenance...

 

[Nickage87]

Not sure where you got your efficiency numbers, but they’re wrong. They are substantially wrong for 240V L2 charging. Also, Model 3 doesn’t heat the battery when parked. At $2.50/gallon for gasoline, your PHEV would have to do close to 100 mpg to be equivalent to the Model 3, using the SR+ for comparison purposes. At the current east coast prices of $2.79/gallon it would need closer to 110 mpg. Also, consider that Tesla is continually improving their tech. By the time PHEVs reach 70 mpg (which they probably won’t), Tesla will have even more efficient battery chemistry - you’ve overlooked the fact that battery and EV tech is improving much faster than ICE tech. ICE engines will not make substantial strides in efficiency until they figure out how to burn petroleum products without making heat or how to efficiently capture the heat and turn it into useful power.

Remember that the true environmental magic of EVs is in shifting emissions upstream to the generation facilities. That allows improvements in generation technology to benefit all EV drivers immediately - no need to retrofit every EV car on the road. When improvements are made to ICE or PHEV engine tech, it usually cannot be retrofitted - we have to wait for older tech to be diluted out by new car purchases and junking of older cars. With cars lasting 200K or more miles these days, that is taking longer and longer. Just think about how much better EVs become every day as coal-fired power plants are shuttered and replaced with natural gas or renewable power, like hydro, wind, and solar.

Here is simple example:
SR+
Lets say price per gallon of gas is $2.5
Lets say price per kWh 15c

Let say I have Tesla SR+ and Honda Insight

Honda Insight real life MPG is 50 this means 1 mile costs me $2.5/50miles = 0.05c

Tesla SR+ real lie MPGe is 140 or 130? whatever, it doesn't matter anyway, Real Life SR+ MPG is 60:

180 real miles(out of 250 advertised) divided by 3 gallons I can buy on 50kWh energy cost (50kWh*0.15c=$7.5/$2.5 per gallon=3Gallons of gas price to charge SR+) = 180 / 3 = 60 MPG​

Why 180 miles? Our Saint Elon said 250miles!!!!111 This number from my own experience from driving over 16k miles, and also from this person's post as additional supporting documentation:
180 miles of reasonable range M3 SR+ — Tesla Forums

"because the 240 mile range is only achievable under unrealistic conditions."
​

Thank you for your time.

PS. price on supercharges ~double of those 15c, so MPG will be 30, which is lower than most of modern cars in the same car class.

 

[AmokTime]

Here is simple example:
SR+
Lets say price per gallon of gas is $2.5
Lets say price per kWh 15c

Let say I have Tesla SR+ and Honda Insight

Honda Insight real life MPG is 50 this means 1 mile costs me $2.5/50miles = 0.05c

Tesla SR+ real lie MPGe is 140 or 130? whatever, it doesn't matter anyway, Real Life SR+ MPG is 60:

180 real miles(out of 250 advertised) divided by 3 gallons I can buy on 50kWh energy cost (50kWh*0.15c=$7.5/$2.5 per gallon=3Gallons of gas price to charge SR+) = 180 / 3 = 60 MPG​

Why 180 miles? Our Saint Elon said 250miles!!!!111 This number from my own experience from driving over 16k miles, and also from this person's post as additional supporting documentation:
180 miles of reasonable range M3 SR+ — Tesla Forums

"because the 240 mile range is only achievable under unrealistic conditions."
​

Thank you for your time.

PS. price on supercharges ~double of those 15c, so MPG will be 30, which is lower than most of modern cars in the same car class.

Your mpg assumptions about the Tesla are grossly off. I actually get the rated range in my Model 3 SR+ most of the year. My lifetime Wh/mi is around 226 at about 14K miles on my 2019, but that includes some hot-rodding. Most of my longer drives I get between 170 and 190 Wh/mi. Across the entire year my real-life range comes out to about 235 miles.

 

[diamond.g]

Here is simple example:
SR+
Lets say price per gallon of gas is $2.5
Lets say price per kWh 15c

Let say I have Tesla SR+ and Honda Insight

Honda Insight real life MPG is 50 this means 1 mile costs me $2.5/50miles = 0.05c

Tesla SR+ real lie MPGe is 140 or 130? whatever, it doesn't matter anyway, Real Life SR+ MPG is 60:

180 real miles(out of 250 advertised) divided by 3 gallons I can buy on 50kWh energy cost (50kWh*0.15c=$7.5/$2.5 per gallon=3Gallons of gas price to charge SR+) = 180 / 3 = 60 MPG​

Why 180 miles? Our Saint Elon said 250miles!!!!111 This number from my own experience from driving over 16k miles, and also from this person's post as additional supporting documentation:
180 miles of reasonable range M3 SR+ — Tesla Forums

"because the 240 mile range is only achievable under unrealistic conditions."
​

Thank you for your time.

PS. price on supercharges ~double of those 15c, so MPG will be 30, which is lower than most of modern cars in the same car class.

So why are you driving a Tesla instead of a Honda Insight?

 

[one2many]

Let say I have Tesla SR+ and Honda Insight

Do you have either. Want to race for pink slips, we can set that up. Please stay to
the theme of the post or you could go to the Honda fourm its very fun. That said let hunker down and
have a drink on me. Happy hour in lockdown til 12 pm.