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  • The latest TMC Podcast (#14) is now available on YouTube and all major podcast networks. We covered FSD Beta's exciting v11 update, Enhanced Autopilot coming to the U.S. and Canada, and more!

Tried a FSD subscription. It's not worth it...

I bit the bullet and tried the FSD one-month subscription option for a 1700 mile road trip this past weekend in my 2020 Model 3 Standard Plus. My opinion: not worth it.

Full Self Driving is just a terrible name for what is essentially Autopilot+. I'd imagine your commute would need to involve nothing but freeway driving to get much benefit from a $200 a month subscription, and definitely not $12000.

Summon is one of those features that's neat to play with, and might come in handy once in a blue moon. I'd pay $5 to sneak the car out of a tight spot once in a while, but not a recurring subscription.

Navigate on autopilot did relieve the necessity to keep turning autopilot off and back on every time I wanted to change lanes, which begs the question of why Tesla requires you to turn the autopilot off and back on just to change lanes. The cruise control worked the same as before, and honestly, I can handle lane changes on my own.

Stoplight and stop sign handling was terrible. It ID'd stop signs that weren't there, stopped the car in the middle of a highway, and tries to stop for most green lights unless you remember to tell it not to. It stopped for no reason multiple times during the trip. This in turn caused more safety hazards than if I just disabled it to begin with.

Autopilot is generally a great tool. You can turn it on, pay attention, and not really worry too much about your car doing things you'd rather it not do. FSD adds a whole new level of anxiety and complexity that is in no way a finished product. I can't imagine the FSD Beta being any better. I could understand it if it weren't so expensive, but at $12000/$200 per month, it is wildly overpriced. I've already canceled the subscription, and I doubt I'll be missing anything when it ends except the ability to impress friends by letting the car mope around a parking lot by itself.
1600px-Tesla_Autopilot_Engaged_in_Model_X.jpg

("Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X.jpg" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY 4.0.)
 
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There are hard sells and soft sells. You think that Tesla would lose money by having the license be per-user? I disagree completely -- I for one would buy FSD in a heartbeat if it were tied to my account, even if I had to add to it later... using the example above, if they improved things and I had to buy into that improvement. The reason is that I know my car lasts 5-10 years and I don't want to spend (now) $12k each and every time I get a new car. That's ridiculous. Tesla would gain so much buy-in from the already heavy brand loyalty.
Tesla is having it both ways. You don't get to take your FSD license with you when you buy a new car, because FSD is tied to the car. But then if you you trade in your FSD car to Tesla, it's no longer tied to the car -- they'll remove it and make the next owner pay another $12k for the same add-on that was already paid for.

Seems pretty shady to me.
 
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Tesla is having it both ways. You don't get to take your FSD license with you when you buy a new car, because FSD is tied to the car. But then if you you trade in your FSD car to Tesla, it's no longer tied to the car -- they'll remove it and make the next owner pay another $12k for the same add-on that was already paid for.

Seems pretty shady to me.
That is an odd practice. I heard that was the case but wasn't sure if it was just a tinfoil rumor on here.
I agree it's a very shady process it was paid for on the car they shouldn't be able to make a double profit off of it.
 
That is an odd practice. I heard that was the case but wasn't sure if it was just a tinfoil rumor on here.
I agree it's a very shady process it was paid for on the car they shouldn't be able to make a double profit off of it.
Here are a couple of sources that confirm Tesla does this on trade-ins, and even sometimes in other scenarios:


 

Knightshade

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Jul 31, 2017
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Tesla is having it both ways. You don't get to take your FSD license with you when you buy a new car, because FSD is tied to the car. But then if you you trade in your FSD car to Tesla, it's no longer tied to the car -- they'll remove it and make the next owner pay another $12k for the same add-on that was already paid for.

Seems pretty shady to me.


Why?

If you trade it in, it's their car. They can do whatever they wish with it before reselling it.

They do the same on cars that came with free lifetime premium connectivity too--- sell it private and it says with the car, but trade back to Tesla and they remove it.
 
I have the FSD Beta and I'm in the "can't imagine not having it" camp.

Two things: 1) it's a different (supervisory) way to drive. Nothing wrong with driving in manual, but if you want to use the automation you have to decide to either learn and go with it or stick to your old ways. That in-between spot is not very satisfactory. 2) It takes a good while to adjust and learn to make best use of it. It took me a scary two months.

At this point I use the FSD Beta all the time - freeways, city streets, you name it, because it handles all the low level navigating, steering, speed control for me. Before the FSD Beta, it did that, though only on freeways. It's great most of the time, and where it gets confused it takes a second to override. I'm a happy camper. Never want to be without it.
.
 
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Why?

If you trade it in, it's their car. They can do whatever they wish with it before reselling it.

They do the same on cars that came with free lifetime premium connectivity too--- sell it private and it says with the car, but trade back to Tesla and they remove it.
Shady, in my opinion, because their advantage is everyone else's disadvantage. "They" can do whatever they wish before reselling it, but no one else can. If I pay $12k for FSD, it "depreciates," and I will only make part of that money back when I sell it or trade it in. Tesla can charge that same $12k over and over again on the same car. In fact, there are reports that Tesla has removed FSD from cars after they get sold to dealerships, etc (see the citations above). So the dealer buys it and pays a premium because it has FSD, then Tesla takes it away. If the number of times that happens is above zero, it's shady, to put it nicely.

So, you pay $12k... it doesn't transfer to your next car, nor does it necessarily stay with this car if you sell it. Some percentage of the time, Tesla wins and the new vehicle owner loses. It's like gambling at a casino -- the odds are stacked against you in favor of the house. Is it legal? Sure, I guess it must be. That doesn't mean it's fair, or right, or reasonable.

Reminds me of how when Tesla started accepting Bitcoin, part of the agreement was that if they have to refund anything, they get to choose whether to refund in Bitcoin or in USD, and obviously they will make that choice based on whether the value of Bitcoin has gone up or down.

Refunds and Buybacks. If you’re entitled to a refund or a buyback, we can refund to you either (1) the exact Bitcoin amount that you entered when you made the purchase or (2) the original U.S. Dollar price of the purchase. And it’s up to us which one happens; you don’t get to choose (we might choose one option over the other to try to get you your refund quicker). But that also means the risk is all on you if the Bitcoin value changes between the time you made the purchase and the time you get the refund (in the form we choose). So, for example, if we refund you in Bitcoin, the value of that Bitcoin amount might be a lot less than it was when you paid it to us; and if we refund you in U.S. Dollars, that U.S. Dollar amount might be a lot less than the current market value of the Bitcoin amount you used to make your payment.

a37e36e06fc266ba15a0ee22b1f74d96.jpg
 
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Why?

If you trade it in, it's their car. They can do whatever they wish with it before reselling it.

They do the same on cars that came with free lifetime premium connectivity too--- sell it private and it says with the car, but trade back to Tesla and they remove it.
They shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. If you switch cars the software is bound to the car. But when Tesla gets them back it's suddenly bound to the user?
It's like taking the performance brakes, tires and speed off of the M3P when you turn it in and then charging them again for the performance upgrade.
 
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boonedocks

MS LR Blk/Blk 19” FSD BETA 2nd round
May 1, 2015
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Considering the way the world is moving to apps only, it would really be right for Tesla to treat FSD as an app and it just move with the owner not tied to the device.

If I update my phone to an iPhone 17 lol all of my previous apps will be installed on it as my apps not as my iPhone 13 hardware only apps and gone forever.
 
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Knightshade

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Jul 31, 2017
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They shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. If you switch cars the software is bound to the car. But when Tesla gets them back it's suddenly bound to the user?

No. It's still bound to the car.

But when you trade it in they own the car so they can now make changes to it.

Just like YOU had the right to make changes to it (including the brakes you use as a later example).

The only difference is they have the tools to make more changes to it than you do (mainly software ones)




It's like taking the performance brakes, tires and speed off of the M3P when you turn it in and then charging them again for the performance upgrade.

You don't think legacy dealers can do things like swap premium wheels off a vehicle that was traded in and swap em with another cars basic wheels?

Because I've literally seen legacy dealers do that.

Once they own it, they own it, and can change anything they want on it.
 
Considering the way the world is moving to apps only, it would really be right for Tesla to treat FSD as an app and it just move with the owner not tied to the device.

If I update my phone to an iPhone 17 lol all of my previous apps will be installed on it as my apps not as my iPhone 13 hardware only apps and gone forever.
I agree and hey I'm not being cheap if there are substantial new features or it comes out of beta an upgrade charge is reasonable to ask for. It doesn't need to be free for life regardless of the effort. Maybe Major revisions numbers have a price?
 
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Knightshade

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Shady, in my opinion, because their advantage is everyone else's disadvantage. "They" can do whatever they wish before reselling it, but no one else can. If I pay $12k for FSD, it "depreciates," and I will only make part of that money back when I sell it or trade it in.

Generally speaking, you weren't interested in getting max $ anyway if you traded it in.

If you want more $, sell private party. You can then price FSD at full price too (since it'd cost the new owner full price to add it to a car without it after all)

In fact- if FSD has gone up since you bought, you BOTH get a good deal that way, you could include the say 6k YOU paid for it a while back, and he saves the 6k EXTRA the price has gone up since.



Tesla can charge that same $12k over and over again on the same car. In fact, there are reports that Tesla has removed FSD from cars after they get sold to dealerships, etc (see the citations above). So the dealer buys it and pays a premium because it has FSD

Not quite, no.

The famous case was where Tesla owned the car, flagged it for removing FSD on the back end, sent the car to auction.

Car-side the SW didn't update till after the auction (but FSD was never listed in the auction listing either).

Once dealer had car FSD went away when the car-side SW updates. Dealer knew this before delivering it to a final customer but delivered it anyway.


Now- this IS a hole in Teslas IT systems- cars in inventory should be blocked from going to auction until they get a ping back FROM the car that any pending updates/changes have been received.... but it's not "shady" it's just lazy programming.
 

bro1999

Active Member
Apr 26, 2016
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Considering the way the world is moving to apps only, it would really be right for Tesla to treat FSD as an app and it just move with the owner not tied to the device.

If I update my phone to an iPhone 17 lol all of my previous apps will be installed on it as my apps not as my iPhone 13 hardware only apps and gone forever.
Frankly, it's stupid Tesla doesn't let owners port over FSD to newly purchased cars. There should be some kind of way to transfer FSD to a new Tesla. I bet you the uptake for FSD would actually increase if they allowed for some kind of transfer option, even if they charged some premium for transferring FSD (be it $1k or whatever).
 
Frankly, it's stupid Tesla doesn't let owners port over FSD to newly purchased cars. There should be some kind of way to transfer FSD to a new Tesla. I bet you the uptake for FSD would actually increase if they allowed for some kind of transfer option, even if they charged some premium for transferring FSD (be it $1k or whatever).
Completely agree I would even consider it even though it's just a toy now. If there was an upgrade path it wouldn't feel like setting $12k on fire.
It adds zero value to a car and is removed if you trade in your car to tesla. Also it would lock me in to Tesla. In 4-8 years I may consider something else but if I had FSD purchased it would be really hard to leave knowing I would lose it.
 
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bro1999

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Apr 26, 2016
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Completely agree I would even consider it even though it's just a toy now. If there was an upgrade path it wouldn't feel like setting $12k on fire.
It adds zero value to a car and is removed if you trade in your car to tesla. Also it would lock me in to Tesla. In 4-8 years I may consider something else but if I had FSD purchased it would be really hard to leave knowing I would lose it.
Imagine you paid $12k extra for FSD (be it in your original order or you pay after delivery) then 5 minutes later you got clobbered by a drunk driver and your Tesla is totaled. You literally just set $12k on fire (especially if you added post-delivery).
 
Imagine you paid $12k extra for FSD (be it in your original order or you pay after delivery) then 5 minutes later you got clobbered by a drunk driver and your Tesla is totaled. You literally just set $12k on fire (especially if you added post-delivery).
Actually called my insurance on this and they said if it was purchased with car it Would be cover if totaled.
They shouldn't be allowed to have it both ways. If you switch cars the software is bound to the car. But when Tesla gets them back it's suddenly bound to the user?
It's like taking the performance brakes, tires and speed off of the M3P when you turn it in and then charging them again for the performance upgrade.
As they are the new owner they should remove anything that would limit resale. (including tacky upgrades) As the majority feel FSD is so over priced and not of interest (see forum) it’s wise that they remove it and let anyone that buys the car determine if They want said upgrade. If it’s not there and you didn’t buy it nobody lost or gained anything.
 
User initiated Auto-lane change is such a nice feature, and is often cited as the best features of FSD. It is pretty frustrating that they don't allow that to be purchased separately. I imagine people would pay $1K to $2K for that.
Agreed. The lane-keeping assistance in the low-end Ford Fusion I rented from Avis while waiting for my MY temporarily turned off lane-keeping when one used the turn signal to change lanes, then it came back on. And our all-electric Volvo XC40 does the same. It's sooooo much easier than Tesla's "Autopilot" lane-keeping assistance. LOL.
 
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Knightshade

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Actually called my insurance on this and they said if it was purchased with car it Would be cover if totaled.


Yup.

Not only that if you bought it after for most insurance companies you can notify them of that and have coverage for FSD added after the fact.

If you have a policy with replacement cost you might even make money on the deal if the price went up since you previously bought it... (well, not make exactly, but get more than you paid for it anyway)
 

2101Guy

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Jan 6, 2020
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My AP did this yesterday at 80 MPH (That is the speed limit on the road I am driving). It was a bunghole clencher as an 18 wheeler was behind me. How in the heck is this happening?
The bois will tell you that if the 18 wheeler would have slammed into the back of you and killed you, it would have been his fault. and that your family should have solace in knowing that.
 
As they are the new owner they should remove anything that would limit resale. (including tacky upgrades) As the majority feel FSD is so over priced and not of interest (see forum) it’s wise that they remove it and let anyone that buys the car determine if They want said upgrade. If it’s not there and you didn’t buy it nobody lost or gained anything.
It absolutely benefits them they double, triple etc charge for the same item. I don't see how anyone can defend the removal of a previously purchased feature on a car. I don't want FSD but I would have the option of disabling it just like any other feature on the car. I also keep the added value for resale if any.
I disabled the front headlight washers on my Audi the next person who buys the car may want them. The feature stays with the car and can be toggled by the buyer not Audi. My Prestige package included features that I paid for you can't just disable them when you trade in the car.

At least I think it unacceptable unless the customer specifically requests it. I think it's a slippery slope where software locks can be added and removed on items and people can be rebilled for an item previously purchased. What's to stop them from removing it when it's transferred to another account? So you give your son your used M3 and when he registers it on his account everything you've added is gone.
 

Knightshade

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Jul 31, 2017
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What's to stop them from removing it when it's transferred to another account? So you give your son your used M3 and when he registers it on his account everything you've added is gone.


The law?

They can't remove things you paid for unless THEY own the thing they're removing it from.

At which point they can remove anything they want. Because they own the thing.

Which is exactly how this has always worked with hardware (see again a dealer swapping the wheels on a used car they took as a trade in- but they can't come do that for a private sale)- and now works the same way with software.
 
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