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Tried a FSD subscription. It's not worth it...

I bit the bullet and tried the FSD one-month subscription option for a 1700 mile road trip this past weekend in my 2020 Model 3 Standard Plus. My opinion: not worth it.

Full Self Driving is just a terrible name for what is essentially Autopilot+. I'd imagine your commute would need to involve nothing but freeway driving to get much benefit from a $200 a month subscription, and definitely not $12000.

Summon is one of those features that's neat to play with, and might come in handy once in a blue moon. I'd pay $5 to sneak the car out of a tight spot once in a while, but not a recurring subscription.

Navigate on autopilot did relieve the necessity to keep turning autopilot off and back on every time I wanted to change lanes, which begs the question of why Tesla requires you to turn the autopilot off and back on just to change lanes. The cruise control worked the same as before, and honestly, I can handle lane changes on my own.

Stoplight and stop sign handling was terrible. It ID'd stop signs that weren't there, stopped the car in the middle of a highway, and tries to stop for most green lights unless you remember to tell it not to. It stopped for no reason multiple times during the trip. This in turn caused more safety hazards than if I just disabled it to begin with.

Autopilot is generally a great tool. You can turn it on, pay attention, and not really worry too much about your car doing things you'd rather it not do. FSD adds a whole new level of anxiety and complexity that is in no way a finished product. I can't imagine the FSD Beta being any better. I could understand it if it weren't so expensive, but at $12000/$200 per month, it is wildly overpriced. I've already canceled the subscription, and I doubt I'll be missing anything when it ends except the ability to impress friends by letting the car mope around a parking lot by itself.
1600px-Tesla_Autopilot_Engaged_in_Model_X.jpg

("Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X.jpg" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY 4.0.)
 
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Oh no it isnt, certainly not for Windows, which is the example thrown out in this thread again and again. It's done that way so Microsoft get $$ for every new computer purchase, since they have known for years that most people only upgrade the OS when they buy a new computer. So in fact the Windows model is exactly the same as the Tesla model .. the only difference being in the case of Windows you more or less HAVE to buy the product when you buy the computer, whereas FSD is an option with Tesla.
You're obfuscating the point. It doesn't matter that OEMs exist or not exist, Windows has a transferrable license and we have choice in the matter.

I don't want to draw these comparisons because ultimately that is an independant vendor deal and you have choice where we have in this comparison a monopolistic vendor. Windows is first and foremost a product that is sold and transferrable. Like nearly every other software out there - because even if you're wrong or right, the market knows you want another copy of the OS on the new platform, and there's multiple ways to get it -- transferred license or OEM. With Tesla the only choice is fully repurchase forever in any context from good to bad. It's shady, especially that I did just verify that if your Tesla FSD computer gets damaged / replaced or the car gets totaled, you WILL lose FSD. We as consumers get no protections from the purchase and only pain. Value of the car is inflated which Insurance companies may raise premiums but will not reimburse for FSD because it's "an addon". Well, what is it, built in or addon? (that's rhetorical - however, the only thing that matters is that insurance companies will not reimburse addons and software is definitely considered addon from their perspective)

Look if FSD was all actual physical hardware that was placed in the machine like stated elsewhere I'd agree with the lot of you - it would be like "the sport package" and if the car got totaled it would just get replaced. But every car has all the hardware capabilites for FSD. Even if you could argue this is EXACTLY like OEM Windows, I could call Dell on a totaled Dell and get a new copy of windows. Not in Tesla's case. It's a hefty $12k you have to fully repurchase, for a car you already owned, and on top of that you're still insuring the car for the sticker price which included FSD. Talk about double-dipping.

Yes, there are videos of people who have actually been through this and can attest that this actually happens. It's not "part of the car" from an insurance perspective. That is extremely telling, to me.

Per-owner licensing solves all that. Why even defend the alternative, really. Why? Even Tesla would lose all arguments against stripping FSD from repurposed cars that had FSD. You as an owner can have 1 license for 1 car that goes to your next Tesla when/if you get it. You may have to upgrade the FSD computer or maybe even purchase new licenses for new capabilities, and that makes sense to me. Capability based owner licensing is the way to go.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
3,083
4,014
Seattle
Not at all even close to same. That's hardware. And even in some cases I could carry hardware from car to car. But that is a physical change to the object. It's like adding a bike rack. There are physical differences between those models. There is absolutely no physical difference at all between the Tesla Model 3 LR with FSD and without FSD. And like I've said in other threads, you even total your Tesla or damage the computer and run risk of never getting FSD replaced because gee, it's tied to the computer that's gone. It's not a transferrable license in its current state.
But it is the same. Consider two car makers selling nearly identical cars, and both offering an "auto-steer" option for the car. Both cars cost $50k, and the "auto-steer" option costs $5K more. The auto-steer option consists of the actuators needed to control the steering column, and additional software to control them.

Car maker A decides to omit the extra hardware (actuators) needed for the option from the car during manufacture. When the option is purchased, the buyer needs to take the car to a dealer, who will fit the actuators and install the additional software for $5k.

Car maker B decides to include the actuator hardware on all cars during manufacturing. Purchasing is then just a software update which can be done OTA for the same $5k.

Now, the only difference to the buyer is that for car A a trip to the dealer is needed, but for car B no trip is needed. The $$ amounts are the same, the feature is the same, and the effect on the car is the same. In both cases, the buyer ends up with a car with auto-steer, then they can then sell on the next owner with the option, and presumably recover some of the cost of the auto-steer option in the resale price.

You seem to be trying to argue that these two paths are different in some metaphysical way, whereas from a purely functional standpoint they are identical. In fact, the only difference is that in case A, the actuators before purchase are located further away from the car (at the dealer in a box) than in case B (in the car).

Your argument is based on your incidental knowledge of how the goal is achieved, but that is simply an implementation detail. Externally, there is no difference between A and B. The effect is the same. The cost is the same. The resale model is the same. Tesla have chosen a model that makes all options for the car equal, regardless of how they are achieved and by what combination of software and hardware. So you buy fancy wheels .. and resell them with the car. You buy FSD .. and resell it with the car. And so on.

However, having said this, I will admit that for FSD city streets only things are more complex. In this specific case, many people have purchased FSD with the assumption that the main value-add of FSD is the to-be-delivered city streets feature, and in some cases have, or may be about to, sell the car without ever having seen this feature delivered. This would be the same as ordering a car with special wheels and then waiting years with them never arriving. In this case I think there is some justification, regardless of the legal technicalities, of expecting Tesla to make-good on early adopters who failed to get the added value they were led to believe they would see.
 
You seem to be trying to argue that these two paths are different in some metaphysical way, whereas from a purely functional standpoint they are identical. In fact, the only difference is that in case A, the actuators before purchase are located further away from the car (at the dealer in a box) than in case B (in the car).
I abhor that insurance companies will not replace/refund FSD which is "part of the car" (look, that's an argument in and of itself but lets let that lie for the moment using either path you state), so from a liability standpoint we as consumers suffer for any accidents. If it's really part of the car, why are we paying insurance for a car that costs ($standardCost IN ADDITION TO $FSDcost) when the insurance co will only reimburse for ($standardCost). It's either part of the car or it isn't. Insurance says it's not part of the car for reimbursal, but is part of the car for sticker-based coverage, so will still charge us premiums for the sticker price which includes FSD, so higher premiums that will never reimburse for "addons".

So I can agree with whatever you say (or not) but my issue is that from a liability standpoint we have zero protections for purchasing FSD, not to mention the actual zero protections for using FSD. If I pay 6k to now 12k on something, I want to know that I'm protected - that's why I have insurance. If the car and the standard mfr equipment I got from the mfr got damaged, I should get a replacement. Surprise, I don't. Addon.

Or worse, if you bought FSD in the last few years, and your car is fully insured and then you get totaled, lets assume you get your money back (you won't, but I'm playing devil's advocate here) you might be refunded the sticker price but FSD increases in cost. Insurance definitely will not reimburse for the additional costs of FSD as it goes up in cost over time. Still a bad thing in that context. You could potentially then get the equivalent hardware car but you're re-purchasing the difference in FSD from your own pocket. Um.... yeah.

Pretty snarky honestly. I can concede that we may never see eye to eye on licensing or "part of the car", but really, if it's "part of the car" it really needs to be part of the car, LIKE a piece of physical hardware, so insurance covers it, or tesla re-licenses it in replacement scenarios. Right now, it's not. We pay and repay for issues out of our control. If that's how it is, that's just flat out suspect.

But I frankly don't want to justify the currently 80's-dongle hack licensing they use. Owner licensing is better. Again, why are we defending the current model? I would think the Tesla community would prefer per-owner license. It makes sense. FSD capability is consistent across all models currently. We know this is just software anyway. It makes sense, on top of being just common sense and consumer protecting.

I appreciate your response, and I largely agree with what you stated, but it doesn't speak to the liability and insurance.
 
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You know maybe I'm thinking about the removal of FSD when you trade it in to Tesla wrong. Maybe it's not a greed thing? Maybe it's because they know it's insanely unsafe and unless you've researched it for yourself and know that it cannot be trusted. They don't want people just having it and engaging it thinking it can actually take you to your destination.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
15,667
29,731
NC
It's a problem for me. I don't have 12k to spend every time I want a new Tesla with FSD. Do you?

Yes, because I financed my car at 2% and put the cash into TSLA. But that's irrelevant to the discussion.

12k buys you a lifetime-of-the-car license for FSD. If you don't think that's worth 12k don't buy it.

If you think it's only worth it a few times a year, you have the subscription option, and can use that on your next Tesla too.



Great. I think even the most elitist and rich amongst this crew would agree, however, that paying 12k for every new Tesla they might acquire is excessive and without a proposed alternative like I'm suggesting, they just do it.

I think paying for a new tesla at all is excessive, they should just give me a free one.


I think what I'm proposing is completely reasonable.

Me too! where's my free Tesla?


Seriously though- if I buy the driver assist on any OTHER car- can I "take that with me"? Will caddy let me take supercruise to my next car? Hell with Lexus let me take their antique radar cruise to my next Lexus for free? Nope. NOBODY does what you want in the auto space.




As I've worked in the OEM industry, the whole and sole reason the license is tied to the machine is for supportability ONLY.

100% false. As you've already had explained it is because MS requires windows be sold with new systems.... Even customers that already have an enterprise agreement with MS end up paying their OEMs for ANOTHER windows license per box they don't even need.


If the only copy of Windows that is sold at all, ever, was OEM I'd agree with you. I spend $ for the full retail license and I can carry that with me to my next machine. In fact, I can't think of a single modern piece of software, including my Windows that I have, that I can't take with me to my next machine.


Really?

Where can I buy a retail, one-time-payment, portable copy of Windows 10 IOT?

(spoiler- you can't- their enterprise/OEM only)


I pay $12,000 dollars for a license that I get zero supportability

Is your Tesla app broken?

Can you not open a service ticket if your FSD isn't operating?

Might wanna see to that. I personally had my side cameras replaced a few months ago for free under warranty for example because FSD was having issues.

I also get that support a lot longer than Microsoft supports a retail copy of windows :)



. Tesla would make a LOT more money if they went per-user.


Please show your math that proves you're better at making money than one of the most valuable companies in the world and one with industry leading profit margins.



You're obfuscating the point. It doesn't matter that OEMs exist or not exist, Windows has a transferrable license and we have choice in the matter.

Again show me the transferable Windows IOT license.


Yes, there are videos of people who have actually been through this and can attest that this actually happens. It's not "part of the car" from an insurance perspective. That is extremely telling, to me.

It tells me they have a crap insurance company. Mine will cover it just fine, at replacement cost.

So will many others.


So I can agree with whatever you say (or not) but my issue is that from a liability standpoint we have zero protections for purchasing FSD, not to mention the actual zero protections for using FSD. If I pay 6k to now 12k on something, I want to know that I'm protected - that's why I have insurance. If the car and the standard mfr equipment I got from the mfr got damaged, I should get a replacement. Surprise, I don't.

Again that's a problem with your crappy insurance company not with Tesla.


Insurance definitely will not reimburse for the additional costs of FSD as it goes up in cost over time.

Except, they will, if you have replacement cost coverage.


Maybe it's because they know it's insanely unsafe

<citation needed>

And by that I mean actual properly used FSD deaths, not "OMG this video is kinda scary but nothing bad actually happened"
 
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<citation needed>

And by that I mean actual properly used FSD deaths, not "OMG this video is kinda scary but nothing bad actually happened"
I'm saying people getting FSD that didn't request it or know anything about it. That's why I'm saying maybe Tesla removes it because it's unsafe leaving it for people who didn't request it.

Just thinking about it logically. My mom buys a used Tesla didn't read the manual or request FSD. See that there's a feature called "Full Self Driving" not "Full Self Driving ish" or "Almost Ready Full Self Driving" So she turns it on and it's fantastic making 5-6 turns flawlessly, stopping at lights avoiding puppies the world is great this is the best thing ever. She breaks out her phone takes her hands off the wheel and starts showing all her friends this cool new feature on a used Tesla. Bam in to a divider because she didn't realize that she had to take over.
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
3,083
4,014
Seattle
I appreciate your response, and I largely agree with what you stated, but it doesn't speak to the liability and insurance.
My understanding is the insurance issues are state by state. Certainly there are people here who have been made whole by the insurance company including the FSD purchase price, but I'm not sure if that only applies to FSD purchased with the car rather than purchased later. However, this is really a problem for the insurance industry, and one they are going to have to face sooner or later as Tesla is certainly not the only vendor going down the path of software-enabled content. And of course we all know how honest and cooperative insurance companies are :)
 
My understanding is the insurance issues are state by state. Certainly there are people here who have been made whole by the insurance company including the FSD purchase price, but I'm not sure if that only applies to FSD purchased with the car rather than purchased later. However, this is really a problem for the insurance industry, and one they are going to have to face sooner or later as Tesla is certainly not the only vendor going down the path of software-enabled content. And of course we all know how honest and cooperative insurance companies are :)
Yeah everything changes slowly I'm sure they'll catch up and maybe Tesla will change the model so it's included on a trim level? I think that would be easier for companies to understand. I don't think my insurance company covers FSD. Though you could probably add a rider like we do with my wife's engagement ring. They don't seem to care what you insure as long as you pay extra. I do really like my company though this is the only company that calls you up and reduces your rate. They recently almost halved my rate and I didn't have to ask for it. Also my rate only went up $5 a month going from a 2016 S3 to the 2022LR I thought that was pretty good.
 
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