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Trump threatens to end subsidies for electric vehicles
- Thread starter Drizzle
- Start date
Fortunately, there is a legislative answer in the works to Trump's threat, one we can get behind. House Resolution 7173 is a BIPARTISAN bill that will be introduced in this lame-duck session and RE-introduced in the 2019 session of Congress. Analysis shows that, if passed in its current form, it will likely: (1) Reduce America's carbon emission by at least 40% within 12 years, (2) Improve health and save lives, (3) Provide a dividend to households, (4) Create 2.1 million additional jobs over the next 10 years, (5) Be revenue-neutral and especially fair to low-income households. You can read more about it here. If you agree that this would be a powerful antidote, call or write your MOC ASAP!
I enjoy driving a Tesla a much as the rest of you. But not because I'm some wonderful saint that's saving the planet. It makes up for the precious fossil fuel I burn in my airplane! And not a huge Trump fan either. But... I feel that too many EV drivers think that if they plug their car into an electrical outlet it's this wonderful green energy and they're saving that planet. Step back for a minute and think about where that power is actually coming from. Especially the folks from California. Only because California cannot generate enough power for the amount of their usage. Including EV vehicles. I live in Oregon and we ship plenty of power that way. And where does that power in Oregon come from? It comes from somewhat green sources like hydroelectric dams (yes - fish killers!), when we have excess water to let over the dam, and windmills (yes - bird killers!), when the wind is blowing. Some residential solar here, but too cloudy/raining weather half the year to be highly efficient. So... to keep up with demand for both Oregon and California we must burn Coal and Natural Gas. OMG! Fortunately these plants actually burn very cleanly. No black smoke coming from their stacks and no dead cows in the field next to them! To put it in perspective, here's a list of the currently operating plants from the Oregon energy website.
Boardman Coal Plant - Coal Plant - 550 MW
Coyote Springs Cogeneration - Natural Gas Plant - 503 MW
Hermiston Generating Project - Natural Gas Plant - 474MW
Hermiston Power Project - Natural Gas Plant - 546 MW
Klamath Generation Peakers - Natural Gas Plant - 95 MW
Port Westward Generating Project - Natural Gas Plant - 650 MW
Beaver Power Plant - Natural Gas Plant - 525 MW
Oregon Energy - Halsey Natural Gas Plant - 93 MW
Oregon Energy - St. Helens Natural Gas Plant - 141 MW
SP Newsprint - Natural Gas Plant - 119 MW
Klamath Cogeneration Project - Natural Gas Plant - 525 MW
Gee, I wonder what would happen if we shut all these nasty plants down on a cloudy, windless day? Brownouts across California and Tesla's in their garage. But the fleet of natural gas powered transit buses would still be running. The next time you plug your car in think about that until you can come up with a better source to magically feed your power outlet, regardless of weather conditions. The last nuclear plant in Oregon was shut down years ago, so we can't turn that switch on.
Boardman Coal Plant - Coal Plant - 550 MW
Coyote Springs Cogeneration - Natural Gas Plant - 503 MW
Hermiston Generating Project - Natural Gas Plant - 474MW
Hermiston Power Project - Natural Gas Plant - 546 MW
Klamath Generation Peakers - Natural Gas Plant - 95 MW
Port Westward Generating Project - Natural Gas Plant - 650 MW
Beaver Power Plant - Natural Gas Plant - 525 MW
Oregon Energy - Halsey Natural Gas Plant - 93 MW
Oregon Energy - St. Helens Natural Gas Plant - 141 MW
SP Newsprint - Natural Gas Plant - 119 MW
Klamath Cogeneration Project - Natural Gas Plant - 525 MW
Gee, I wonder what would happen if we shut all these nasty plants down on a cloudy, windless day? Brownouts across California and Tesla's in their garage. But the fleet of natural gas powered transit buses would still be running. The next time you plug your car in think about that until you can come up with a better source to magically feed your power outlet, regardless of weather conditions. The last nuclear plant in Oregon was shut down years ago, so we can't turn that switch on.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
*sigh*
'Well, my car is now electric the world is saved, absolutely nothing left to be done on my end' - No one ever
Weird coincidence that EV drivers are >20x more likely to have solar than non-EV drivers...
mkspeedr
Member
The subsidy should end!
Tesla is building cars that can go head to head with ICE. Tesla is losing the subsidy soon anyway - the subsidy accomplished its mission.
It is time to take that government money and focus it on another market/industry. The only people pushing for the credit now are people trying to save money - not save the environment. The subsidy already accomplished its goal.
Clean up the ocean shipping industry emissions would be make a big impact.
Cleaning up the landfills would be a much better use of money.
Tesla is building cars that can go head to head with ICE. Tesla is losing the subsidy soon anyway - the subsidy accomplished its mission.
It is time to take that government money and focus it on another market/industry. The only people pushing for the credit now are people trying to save money - not save the environment. The subsidy already accomplished its goal.
Clean up the ocean shipping industry emissions would be make a big impact.
Cleaning up the landfills would be a much better use of money.
Just tie it to border wall security funding and it will get passed. Otherwise I suspect it will be turned down.
After reading the bill I don't think that would even allow it to pass.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
That's.... that's exactly WHY we need the subsidy. The sad reality is that most people are pathetic selfish creatures that need to be bribed or threatened into doing the right thing.
Or a carbon tax... but then we'd have yellow-vested fools blocking traffic. So, pick your poison.
Thought about that recently. It would be amusing if congress proposed a carbon tax that would also help fund a border wall in addition to funding more EVs and Solar. Sit around kids and let me tell you about the time xenophobia and racism saved the world.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
No doubt you are talking about fossil subsidies, and the externalized costs ?
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Import from a sunny or windy region;
Use stored, clean energy
Use Hydro
During the transition, use fossils as a last resort rather than because it might be a fraction of a penny cheaper to the utility
mkspeedr
Member
If this thread was about fossil fuel - yes, I would use the same statement.
The idea of the subsidy for EV cars was to incentivize people to buy them by helping make the EV cost competitive.
The model 3 is cost competitive and a better car than the ICE competitor. The subsidy has done its job. Now move it to the next market that needs the incentive.
The idea of the subsidy for EV cars was to incentivize people to buy them by helping make the EV cost competitive.
The model 3 is cost competitive and a better car than the ICE competitor. The subsidy has done its job. Now move it to the next market that needs the incentive.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
It is ALL about fossils, that is to say their replacement. Would you have advocated EV subsidies for people who prefer to walk or ride a bicycle ?
mkspeedr
Member
Trump threatens to end subsidies for electric vehicles - that is the title.
Walk, bicycles??? Your response/rebuttal/argument - is not tied to the discussion. I was looking for a good excuse to stop posting - an EV subsidy tied to walking... Thanks
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
For the guy considering a well optioned 3-series BMW it is.
For the guy considering a base model Camry...not so much...especially without the subsidy.
This is even more true of the Y, which is likely going to be replacing ICE vehicles that get worse mileage than the 3 is replacing.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
And continue and/or *increase* subsidies to fossils. Sorry to confuse you with facts but perhaps we can agree that when fossil externalities are priced in then getting rid of subsidies for both fossils and EVs is reasonable. Until that happens, calls for unilaterally ending eV subsidies are ignoring reality.
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SomeJoe7777
Marginally-Known Member
* sigh * indeed.
This "long tailpipe" argument has been debunked countless times. You're ignoring the relative efficiency of burning fossil fuels in an ICE vehicle vs. burning them in a power plant.
The average internal combustion engine can be around 30-35% efficient when running at it's most efficient point, which is near maximum power output. This efficiency means that of the total energy present in the gasoline, 30-35% of it is converted to useful work pushing the car forward, while the rest of it is rejected as waste heat through the radiator and tailpipe.
But ICE's in cars run at their maximum power output only very infrequently, for short bursts. The majority of the time, they're idling or producing minimal power while cruising. They're terribly inefficient at these two tasks.
When you look at overall average efficiency of an ICE for most drives, the engine is only about 15-20% efficient. That means nearly 80% of the energy content of the gasoline is being wasted as heat.
On the other hand, a power plant runs at near maximum output all the time. Furthermore, due to their size, a power plant can use thermodynamic tricks like regenerative steam cycles and reheat cycles to increase their efficiency further. A typical natural-gas-fired superheated steam power plant can achieve 40-45% efficiency.
Compare 45% efficiency of the power plant to 15% efficiency of an ICE. Even when you consider electrical losses associated with the EVs of power transmission and battery charge/discharge, the EV is over twice as efficient as an ICE. This means that an EV can drive twice as many miles for the same amount of CO2 and waste heat put into the air, even if every watt comes from burning a hydrocarbon fuel.
Augment the electrical grid with non-hydrocarbon power sources and the efficiency only goes up from there.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Good argument for combined cycle NG plants, not so much for coal plants where the average thermo efficiency is about 33% and the carbon intensity is higher. And while your stated average ICE efficiency is most certainly true for many cars it is far from universal. My Toyota hybrids (ICE when all is said and done) averaged about 35% overall thermo efficiency.
I love my EVs because they run off the PV in back-yard. I would not have bought them to run off coal.
voyager
Active Member
So... How big are the chances that the Trump administration will in fact terminate the EV tax credit program?
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
It will be used as a chip to win concessions for other priorities of the Trumpledorks.
A better question for you is what are you willing to give them in return ?
Another war ?
A wall ?
A coal subsidy ?
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