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Twin charger without HPWC

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by amitb00, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. amitb00

    amitb00 Member

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    Earlier this was a valid option. Lot of folks recommend twin chargers because of fast AC charging.
    I want to find out if a car has a twin charger but owner does not have HPWC. If he takes the car to a Tesla service center, they will have HPWC and owner will be fine. What happens in the wild? If there are AC chargers with more than 40 A capacity, universal charger with the owner will not be able to get that amount of current. Do traditionally owners of such charging points have their own charging cable, which Tesla with twin charger will use rather than its own mobile connector? In that case does it have proper Tesla adapters etc. I may not be using correct terms but hope my point is put across.
     
  2. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    There are very few public level II EVSEs ('chargers') greater than 30A but they are almost always Tesla HPWCs at Tesla stores or some 70 or 80A J1772 stations so you need no cable or simply your J1772 adapter.

    You need twin chargers built into the car to charge more than 40 A.
     
  3. steve841

    steve841 Active Member

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    In lay terms, Tesla provides the universal mobile connector which can be used with various connections with adapters. The HPWC is not really needed unless you will be driving many miles per day and need to rapidly recharge. Same would apply to twin chargers.
     
  4. tom66

    tom66 Member

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    I thought twin charger was visible from the VIN, I recall something like one of the letters coded for a configuration like that.
     
  5. roblab

    roblab Active Member

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    Don't know about VIN indicating twin inverters. You can have the second inverter added later: that doesn't change the VIN number.

    Been to Canada and Back, used several Roadster Chargers with Tesla Model S adapter, 70 amp. Used several J1772 80 amp chargers with standard adapter. Used HPWC in the wild, 80 amp.

    Most charging was done at Motel's 14-50 outlet, or at in-law's circuit breaker with self wired 14-50, or at 50 amp welder outlet, charging overnight at lower amps.

    Very nice not having to wait twice as long for a top up charge during the day, though. I knew we would be traveling, and I got the twin inverters for that reason.
     
  6. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

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    "In the wild," when you use a LII charger that has greater than 40A, a car with twin chargers will be able to charge with higher Amps -- up to 80A -- whereas a car with a single charger using the very same LII charging station will be limited to 40A. You don't need any special adapters with twin chargers. And BTW, in California, there are a fair number of 70A chargers in the wild in addition to the HPWC.
     
  7. AndyM

    AndyM Member

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    The UMC is at most only ever going to provide 10 kW of charging power (240V at 40A is about 10 kW). The UMC can't push more than that, as per the owner's manual.

    The HPWC is basically (cringing from possible critics here!) a J1772 EVSE that provides up to 80A of power at 208-240V. That's 16-19.2 kW of power.
    That's why the Model S charges happily on a J1772 charger, and why the included adapter is so simple. It's just changing the physical connector.

    J1772 supports up to 17 kW in the spec, but precious few locations in the US provide more than 30A. There are a few unicorns of J1772 chargers that provide more than 6.2 kW of charge (208V at 30A), but they are mostly in Canada (the Sun Country Highway), where there are no superchargers (yet). For these, all you will need is the included J1772 adapter.

    If you think you might someday drive your car to a place where higher power J1772s will appear, then it might be worth the price. It will definitely be worth it compared to retrofitting a twin charger later.

    I bought my Model S with twin chargers, in hopes that more J1772s would appear with higher power. But Tesla has exceeded expectations on supercharging across the country.
    I have personally used the twin chargers at Tesla showrooms and service centers, when no SuperChargers were nearby or convenient. So for me, it was worth it.
    Now I am spoiled by living withing driving range of four supercharger locations, and along a major corridor of them. I may never need twin chargers again, but it is certainly nice to never have to worry.


    -AndyM
    (patiently waiting for Hermiston and Coer d'Alene!)
     
  8. gene

    gene Active Member

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    I believe the twin chargers will be beneficial in Canada where the 70 amp chargers are more common. Being as I travel to Canada yearly, I bought twin chargers. I have also used them at Rabobanks in California.
     
  9. Atebit

    Atebit Member

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    I happened to be speaking to my Advisor today about the possibility o getting twin chargers w/o the HPWC. He said this is currently not a Design Studio option, but that an Advisor could modify your order (preferably prior to Committing) to just include the twin chargers. This would be a $1500USD option. The HPWC can be purchased separately for $1250USD.

    I still have my AV EVSE-RS+ from my LEAF days, so I may live with 30A charging for now. But if I'm gong to keep the car for a while and believe that BEVs will prevail, I'm thinking twin chargers might be a good option to have once 70A 1772s start showing up. Admittedly it would be a 1.5K gamble as I've yet to see such a beast in the wild. While we have good local charging infrastructure in Downtown Raleigh, the majority are aging GE Level II chargers. I guess I can dream they're already provisioned for 100A service. :rolleyes:
     
  10. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I think going with twin chargers and keeping your 30A J1772 is a good compromise (or upgrading to NEMA 14-50). That way you have the ability when traveling to charge faster but most don't need quick charging at home.
     
  11. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    Amit, as has been pointed out, public chargers (not Tesla HPWCs) that put out more than 40 A are still J1772 stations at the end of the day and all you need is your J1772 adapter and the onboard twin chargers to make full use of all those amps.

    Although they are a rarity now and the Supercharger network is growing rapidly, I see the future filled with 60/70/80 A chargers out there, particularly within city limits where you may not find a Supercharger.

    Get the twin chargers and ask the advisor to uncouple the HPWC from the order. Not getting the second charger for $1,500 is the only regret I have with my car given that the post-delivery install costs $3,600. I can't justify the install cost at this point but, I feel a bit sad whenever I'm in the vicinity of a Tesla Service Center and have a chance to get some opportunistic juice from their HPWCs only to see 40/80 A in the charging screen thanks to my solo charger :(
     
  12. amitb00

    amitb00 Member

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    Hi GG and others, Thanks for the response.
    My order is going to be delivered very soon. 10-Mar is the delivery date and I have very little time to make changes. If I can get Tesla to unbundle (I am confident) and not force me to buy HPWC, do folks concur with the thought process above and think that it is worth adding twin chargers at $1500 without HPWC? I am certain that, I don't want to spend $2700 and don;t want to install HPWC at home.
     
  13. liuping

    liuping Active Member

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    I got the twin chargers (without an HPWC), but have only used it at service center so far. I bought it mostly for flexibility/future proofing.

    Since Tesla has announced their CHAdeMO adapter, if I did it all over, I'd probably skip the extra charger, save $500, and buy the CHAdeMO adaptor. Of course it is not actually available yet, so there is some risk it will never ship...
     
  14. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Just bear in mind that the HPWC doesn't have to be used at 80 amps. It has dip switches so you can use it with a 50 amp breaker just like the UMC. It's main advantage is that there isn't an adapter connection as there is in the UMC so it's a little more bullet proof.
     
  15. amitb00

    amitb00 Member

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    Hi liuping, that will be my logic as well for twin charger. That is use it at Tesla service centers or other places in wild (which I don't know if they exist). If it matters, I live in South Florida in Broward County (b/w Ft. Lauderdale and Miami). Does it have >40 A chargers in the wild. I know we have many Tesla service centers.
     
  16. liuping

    liuping Active Member

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    I use Plugshare.com to find chargers. The only CHAdeMO charger in you are are Nissan dealers. Sometimes they let you charge,and sometime they don't.

    Unfortunately, many plugshare.com entries don't list the Amps, and they do not have a sort by >40 options. (just normal and "high power" which are only CHAdeMO and Superchargers for now)
     
  17. 772

    772 Member

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    With the amount of range a Model S has, I don't it will make much of a difference whether you charge at 24A or 70A while you're at the local mall for a couple hours. As more DC charging stations are produced and installed, their prices should come down. They won't be free but if you need miles quickly, paying for a quick charge ought to be faster and more economical than paying the money upfront for twin chargers on a gamble that your local businesses will start installing 70A EVSEs.

    That said, at $1,500 it's not a bad deal at all. I'm sure that eventually we will see the 24A EVSEs being phased out for 70/80A EVSEs. But by the time that happens, I'd imagine a more widespread DC charging network would be in place, too. So, while twin chargers are a nice feature, I think that even if you get single chargers you ought to be just fine.
     
  18. Larry Chanin

    Larry Chanin Model S Perf Sig 1055

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    #18 Larry Chanin, Jan 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014

    Hi Amit,

    My impression is that in the future there is greater likelihood of an expansion of DC fast charging (CHAdeMO, Superchargers or SAE Combo) rather than high capacity AC public chargers. Currently Nissan is aggressively rolling out CHAdeMO fast chargers at their dealerships in Florida. When Tesla releases the CHAdeMO adapter permitting Model Ss to use them, these chargers will have twice the capacity of an HPWC.

    As was pointed out the utility of twin on-board chargers will occur when you have an HPWC at home, or a friend's house, or in the rare instances of high capacity AC public chargers. I am unaware of any high capacity AC public chargers in Florida.

    However, as you know our club has a private charging network where participating members share their home charging sources. Some of those sources are HPWCs. Since you are a member of the charging network you would be able to use these HPWCs at the faster charge rate if you were to order twin on-board chargers.

    In addition, members of our club have donated to the installation of an HPWC in Key West and we expect it to be operational soon. So you would also be able to use that HPWC at the faster rate if you had twin chargers.

    Regards,

    Larry
     
  19. Gizmotoy

    Gizmotoy Active Member

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    In 2012 and 2013 it was part of the VIN, but was kind of silly as roblab pointed out. As of 2014, it is no longer part of the VIN.

    I strongly considered the second charger for my build. I've only had it a few months, but I've been on several trips now and have not had a single occasion to use it. My daily usage isn't enough to make it worthwhile, either. I thought it might be useful on trips, but I'll probably just get the CHAdeMO adaptor when it comes out and call it a day. Between it and Superchargers, travel should be covered.
     
  20. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

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    before they were bundled, I ordered them both, then I sold my HPWC, just couldn't justify all that money for a proprietary charging station. I ended up getting a Clipper Creek CS 100 (J1772, 80A) that now has the dual amp upgrade. The charger is at the end of my driveway and will be on plugshare, being J1772 it can charge every EV on the market at each respective car's highest rate. I added a Nema 14-50 to the same circuit in my garage where the S charges most of the time. I have been doing the EV thing for a few years and have opted for redundancy and universal compatibility. when I need a faster charge, I just pull the S up to the 80A charger. I've seen the rate go up to 63 miles an hour of rated charge! definitely get the dual chargers if you plan on keeping the car a long time, you just never know what the landscape is going to look like. I've used the dual charger many times. don't underestimate what even a few extra minutes is worth, it adds up fast, especially when you've got a family twiddling their thumbs asking "Dad, is it done yet!
     

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