U.S. opens formal safety probe for Autopilot - 2021 Aug 16

[AndreP]

I think Investigations are always needed and should be a good thing, especially when new tech can have such great potential of both good and bad.

The problem is the archaic way governement bodies do this. It will be YEARS until they reach a conclusion. And at that point the tech will have become obsolete. Unless of coarse this is political and they just want to throw Tesla under the bus, or fire truck….

bottom line there should be no reason a Tesla hits a stationary object. Period. I know the radar thing yes but the vision and us sensors should make it not possible.
It’s crazy how my Tesla drives itself all over busy roads and cities so we’ll but if I’m heading straight into a wall it will just let me.
I’m hoping with the new vision based AP it will be better.

I’m pretty sure a car manufacturer fixing an issue still under investigation would be an ideal outcome for the NHTSA. The investigation process is very clearly outlined on the NHTSA website and it involves a lot of interaction with the manufacturer, so it's not as if they'll be working in a vacuum while Tesla does their thing.

The driver MUST keep hands on the wheel and be able to TAKE CONTROL at an instant. Use of either Autopilot or FSD does NOT entitle you to read, play games, take a nap, or ignore the fact that THE DRIVER is still in control and responsible for the safe operation of one of the most potentially deadly weapons on Earth.

This is exactly the type of situation regulators exist to address. Where there is potential for abuse, regulators are there to help protect the public from the negligent actions of others.

We already know that tech like Autopilot and Adaptive Cruise do not deal well with static objects when traveling at high speeds, and you'd need to really not be paying attention to slam into a crash scene lit up with cones / emergency lights / flares. I think the risk here is in enforcing driver attentiveness when this technology is being used and what might be required.

Best case solution might be some type of over-their-air update, medium case would be recalling all vehicles for a hardware upgrade, and worst case would be the regulator disabling the functionality altogether. But I don't think there's much risk of the latter happening.

 

[MP3Mike]

worst case would be the regulator disabling the functionality altogether. But I don't think there's much risk of the latter happening.

I could see them making Tesla disable TACC/AP on AP1 vehicles on any road other than a closed access highway.

 

[sunfarm]

I could see them making Tesla disable TACC/AP on AP1 vehicles on any road other than a closed access highway.

What is TACC and AP1 vehicles?

 

[MorrisonHiker]

What is TACC and AP1 vehicles?

Cars built from around September 2014 to beginning of October 2016.

 

[Az_Rael]

I could see them making Tesla disable TACC/AP on AP1 vehicles on any road other than a closed access highway.

I don't think they will limit action to just AP1. AP2 is also weak on detecting stopped vehicles, so I could see them forcing a geofence for all autosteer cars.

Now, what that would do to those of use who purchased FSD? I guess Tesla would finally be able to use their "regulation" get out of jail clause I suppose.

 

[MP3Mike]

What is TACC and AP1 vehicles?

TACC = Traffic Aware Cruise Control
AP1 = Original AP hardware that uses a Mobileye EyeQ3 chip used in vehicles built from September 2014 to beginning of October 2016. (Tesla can't really update most of the AP functionality in these vehicles.)

 

[MP3Mike]

I don't think they will limit action to just AP1. AP2 is also weak on detecting stopped vehicles, so I could see them forcing a geofence for all autosteer cars.

Tesla might be able to provide a software update to AP2/AP2.5 to improve partial lane obstruction detection. Maybe they will geofence AP2/AP2.5, and then the vehicle owner could pay the $1,000 to upgrade to AP3 to unlock that geofence. (Assuming that they don't have to geofence AP3 as well.)

Or they might choose, or be forced, to upgrade all of them to AP3. (Since it is possible to upgrade AP2/AP2.5 vehicles, while it isn't possible to upgrade AP1 vehicles.)

 

[Az_Rael]

Of course it would be helpful to know if each was an AP1 car, or if it was newer... But those details will eventually come out.

The San Diego photo appears to be a model Y based on that rear end.
Miami: hard to tell, but those look like the Model 3 sport wheels
Michigan: Model 3 or Y based on the view of the center screen visible in the photo
Texas: Model X, unknown AP
North Carolina: pre-facelift S, unknown AP
Arizona: Model S, and it looks like there might be the AP2 or greater camera on the side and you can see the B pillar camera
Indiana: Model 3
Conneticut: article states Model 3
Laguna Beach: pre- facelift S, unknown AP
Culver City: Model S, cant see any cameras, but it is hard to tell. There was a much longer thread on this incident, it may have ended up being an AP1 car if I recall.

Looks like a smattering of cars from across Tesla’s entire current lineup. So probably covers all variants of AP

 

[Matias]

Don't worry guys FSD is coming soon and all is well!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1249210220200550405

 

[Matias]

those are are called effing user errors! wow. are u kidding me? where does it say you get to do any of those things and still have a license?? in any car??

good grief i love me some witch hunting...

If people make that kind of user erros more often in Tesla than in other cars, then it
is a problem for Tesla.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

The San Diego photo appears to be a model Y based on that rear end.
Miami: hard to tell, but those look like the Model 3 sport wheels
Michigan: Model 3 or Y based on the view of the center screen visible in the photo
Texas: Model X, unknown AP
North Carolina: pre-facelift S, unknown AP
Arizona: Model S, and it looks like there might be the AP2 or greater camera on the side and you can see the B pillar camera
Indiana: Model 3
Connecticut: article states Model 3
Laguna Beach: pre- facelift S, unknown AP
Culver City: Model S, cant see any cameras, but it is hard to tell. There was a much longer thread on this incident, it may have ended up being an AP1 car if I recall.

Looks like a smattering of cars from across Tesla’s entire current lineup. So probably covers all variants of AP

North Carolina was a 2015 Model S with AP1.

 

[TSLY]

Here's my Comment on today's NYT article and a special comment for this forum.

‘It Happened So Fast’: Inside a Fatal Tesla Autopilot Accident

A 2019 crash in Florida highlights how gaps in Tesla’s driver-assistance system and distractions can have tragic consequences.

www.nytimes.com

I'm about to take delivery of a Tesla Model Y, my first EV. Tesla has removed radar and Lidar from Model Y and 3 claiming its surround camera system, "TeslaVision", is more accurate and less prone to miscalculation. I'm skeptical that removing redundant systems is somehow safer. Elon Musk may be a genius inventor and investor but is prone to hyperbole and snake oil salesmanship. My take is Tesla removed radar and lidar due to the component shortage, wider profit margins, and to save a few bucks. I use automatic cruise control on my current BMW and would never solely rely on it. I'm afraid Musk's hype has lulled some gullible Tesla owner's into foolish behavior. I look forward to my first Tesla and am glad it's safety is being scrutinized by NHTSA.

Addendum:
Until the infrastructure -- roads, bridges, lights, WiFi, GPS -- is updated to specifically accommodate L3-5 FSD, there will be no safe L3-L5 FSD. Tesla can't do it without the infrastructure!

The 6 Levels of Vehicle Autonomy Explained | Synopsys Automotive

Before merging onto roadways, self-driving cars will have to progress through 6 levels of driver assistance technology advancements. SAE defines 6 levels of driving automation ranging from 0 (fully manual) to 5 (fully autonomous). Learn more.

www.synopsys.com

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla has removed radar and Lidar from Model Y and 3 claiming its surround camera system,

Tesla has never shipped a car with LIDAR, so they haven't removed it from anything...

 

[linux-works]

And you know what? I have yet to hear of an autonomous elevator which crashed into another elevator...

2 elevators can't occupy the same space at the same time.

pauli said something similar, I believe.

lol

 

[daktari]

2 elevators can't occupy the same space at the same time.

pauli said something similar, I believe.

lol

I always believed elevators to be kind of SAE level 5, so I don't pay attention when in one.

 

[SeminoleFSU]

Nothing to see here...move along...

Two senators urge 'thorough' U.S. agency Tesla Autopilot probe

Two Democratic U.S. senators on Monday urged the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) to thoroughly investigate Tesla Inc's (TSLA.O) Autopilot and use the review to propose improvements to its driver assistance system.

www.reuters.com

View attachment 697693

and don't forget Tesla is fighting the unions... That's why they didn't get the invite to the WH the other day. Gotta love Poly-tics.

 

[daktari]

Problem is driver without attention to traffic ahead.
What Tesla could do is:
- disable AP faster when system not confident
-disable ap now and then, randomly, to keep driver alert
-disable AP ahead of sharp bends, instead of letting car trying far above its capabilities
-geofence
- replace torque sensor with capacitive sensor and increase nag frequency
-redesign AP so that the wheel doesn't fight against the driver trying to take control

 

[Daniel in SD]

I always believed elevators to be kind of SAE level 5, so I don't pay attention when in one.

They're L4 because of limited ODD (operational design domain).
Though maybe the user is expected to pull the emergency stop if there is a mechanical failure? That's sort of like L3...

 

[daxz]

I tried to find details for all of the collisions listed, but couldn't find one at all. Another I found what I think is it, but about two weeks earlier...


Anybody have any luck finding information on the West Bridgewater incident?

Most of them seem to be in the wee hours of the morning, at least 3 with DUII, a suspended license, and someone watching a movie...

Of course it would be helpful to know if each was an AP1 car, or if it was newer... But those details will eventually come out.

I think the Bridgewater incident was a couple of weeks earlier too: around 12/31/2019

Drivers charged after state police cruisers struck in two separate incidents

One of the troopers leapt over a guardrail to avoid being struck, officials said.

www.wcvb.com

WEST BRIDGEWATER, Mass. —
Two Massachusetts State Police cruisers were hit in separate incidents Monday night while troopers were working beside highways. Officials said two troopers and a motorist were hurt in the incidents.

The first crash occurred around 10:05 p.m. on Route 24 northbound near Exit 17 in West Bridgewater. State police said a trooper from the Middleborough barracks had pulled over a 2007 Lexus to issue a warning and was outside his cruiser when the SUV was struck from behind by a Tesla Model 3.

 

[rxlawdude]

We already know that tech like Autopilot and Adaptive Cruise do not deal well with static objects when traveling at high speeds, and you'd need to really not be paying attention to slam into a crash scene lit up with cones / emergency lights / flares. I think the risk here is in enforcing driver attentiveness when this technology is being used and what might be required.

We already know that the radar-equipped TACC did not deal with static objects when traveling at high speeds.

Please provide data to back up the assertion that it occurs with the vision-only version.