U.S. Right-Wing Conservatives Attitudes Towards Tesla?

[linkster]

We are still trying to figure out where the best spot is to mount our gun racks in the Model S.

There just is no place for these types of comments on an EV Tesla forum!! Quite frankly, I find this type of question or attempt at humor to be very distrurbing to say the least! :cursing:



btw, the Bushmaster with 100rd. double-drum green tips sits nicely in the 3rd row footwell. The five-seven with SS198 nestles nicely in the center console area and the Governor w/PDX1 stays with me in case someone attempts to take the Tesla for an unauthorized test drive. :scared:

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I'm actually enjoying this thread - it is pure comedy. You gotta smile and wave at the slow people. Did I mention that I love my Tesla? I'm with LargeHamCollider - More Tesla....

 

[Canuck]

... people who google legal issues and mash together quotes and links don't actually understand what they're talking about. I've litigated many cases in Delaware courts, far more than the professor you found on google, and what she wrote is limited to non-publicly traded corporations. The Airgas case was in the context of a takeover battle, not a general principle about corporate governance...
If you'd like to learn more, I'm happy to discuss why you're wrong in a private message. Like I said in the prior post, I've given my opinion on the question posed in this thread.
And now, I am signing off of this thread.

I have no interest in private messaging you. Nice try to say I rely on "Google" when I give you specific quotes from the case itself but you do not answer. It always irks me when a lawyer relies on his experience to answer a question. I need not do that except to say that, as you must know, when litigating a case, you can provide both case-law and commentary opinion from respected professors of top law schools. It's not an answer to say you have litigated more case. You must deal with the issue at hand. You have presented no case-law or opinions at all but instead simply sign off of this tread.

The professor herself says:

"The Hobby Lobby case dealt with a closely held company with controlling shareholders, but the Court’s statement on corporate purpose was not limited to such companies."

So nice try with that argument. Plus, once again you said:

"by law it has to focus on maximizing financial value for shareholders"

And I referred you to a case disputing that point to which you replied: the "case was in the context of a takeover battle, not a general principle about corporate governance". What? That makes no sense. Either what you said was right or wrong. What you said above is a "general principle about corporate governance". Was it right or wrong?

 

[AudubonB]

Let me try to stick with this thread's title and its connotations.

I'd like to bring up the case of a friend of mine with whom I cannot have any but the most vapid of political conversations, as he comes close to the caricature of a poorly-educated, highly opinionated, knee-jerk conservative for whom anything coming to the left of Attila the Hun must be trashed (he does have fine qualities, but they lie outside the confines of the above).

Some time back, I had to pick him up at the airport. So I used the P85, naturally. Over the years he's known me, I've always been in the F-350 or some other diesel rig.

I say nothing - but, surprised, he looks around and says "Hey - nice car." Gets in. I stay non-commital as he remarks about it, shaking my head as he queries through the list: Audi? BMW? Lexus?

Shortly I get to the freeway on-ramp and floor it - and now I have him hooked. Once his jaw comes off the floor and back into his face, and finally I divulge it's a Tesla - of which he'd never heard - he becomes all ears. And over the past 18 months he's remained a passionate devotee of the brand.

So, for me: it's all in the delivery. Given the right circumstances, just about anyone can become pro-Tesla.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Moderator's Note

As @FlasherZ correctly noted upthread, most of this thread could be split between Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion, Political Quarantine, and Snippiness. But I've left it as it stands because the title of the thread represented a "truth in advertising" label that should have put participants on notice that it was going to be political and snippy. You're swimming, by choice, in the shark tank, so don't expect any cages from the moderators.

Robert's thoughts:
I have trouble anytime people are labeled into some group and then someone asks, "what does this group think about....?" People are individuals, and it's extremely difficult to find meaningful groupings, especially on subjects with as many facets as Tesla.

Some conservatives like Tesla because it's an entrepreneurial US company, creating jobs and enhancing the global reputation of the country's manufacturing sector, or because Musk is the quintessential "American dream" story, or perhaps something else.

Some conservatives hate Tesla because it's disrupting three major US industries (oil, car manufacturing, car sales), or because Musk and Tesla fans care passionately about reducing CO2 pollution, or perhaps something else.

In talking to individuals about Tesla, I find it most productive to start by understanding what that person is thinking, then addressing that person's particular concerns. And I've stopped trying to do this on the internet, except on this forum.

 

[FlasherZ]

I have a couple of friends who would "love" your friend, AudubonB, as they believe anyone right of Marx or Luna the Tree-Dweller needs to be "re-educated". Ironically, they *hate* Tesla; to them, Tesla represents the evils of capitalism and their customers are oblivious to the world's troubles. The green angle is accepted by them, but the financial angle is what sets them off.

Even test rides couldn't convince them, and for them to drive? That would be giving in to capitalism!

My opinion: meh, believe what you want.

 

[tonybelding]

I have a couple of friends who would "love" your friend, AudubonB, as they believe anyone right of Marx or Luna the Tree-Dweller needs to be "re-educated". Ironically, they *hate* Tesla; to them, Tesla represents the evils of capitalism and their customers are oblivious to the world's troubles. The green angle is accepted by them, but the financial angle is what sets them off.

I've noticed a lot of resentment, widespread around the blogosphere, over "subsidies" of all kinds: the government loans to Tesla and Fisker, tax breaks for buyers of electric cars, government programs to install charging stations, EV makers selling ZEV credits, etc. This resentment comes from both the right and the left, and only the spin is different.

Conservatives hate subsidies of all kinds. The government should never pay for anything, never interfere with the free market, never try to institute any kind of industrial policy, and certainly shouldn't force honest, hard-working, right-thinking taxpayers to shell out for such folly.

Liberals hate any kind of subsidies that go to "the one percent", which they see as basically anybody who drives an EV, but most particularly anybody with a Tesla. Expensive EVs aren't what they ordered to begin with. They wanted punishment cars for those poor, ignorant souls who insist on continuing to drive.

A lot of this blather seems targeted at Tesla even when they aren't the primary offender. I'm thinking about people who harp upon Tesla's loan even though it was paid back early and even though other car companies got bigger payouts. I'm thinking about people who cry about Tesla getting more ZEV credits because they demonstrated a battery-swap station, yet never question why hydrogen cars get three times as many credits as BEVs. And so forth. Tesla is a high-profile target, much more fun to take potshots at than Toyota or GM.

 

[ChadS]

...and both sides harp on Tesla subsidies without mentioning petroleum subsidies.

I am willing to entertain arguments against subsidies, but not if you are only considering the ones convenient to your argument.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

You had me for a second Linkster! Similar setup - the Keltec KSG-9 sits nicely in the 3rd row footwell. Double 00 Buckshot in one side and slugs in the other magazine. The Conceal Carry is a S&W M&P Shield and the long gun is my favorite 300 AAC Blackout riding on a Noveske Rifleworks Lower (god rest his soul).

Back to the Shark Tank - lets watch the "experts" debate the impact the Tesla has on the global environment and their perceived attitudes of RWC's on Tesla's.

Robert Boston you are a good man and your assessments are pretty close to reality - thanks for letting this continue - its been fun.

Here are some pros from my right wing kinda of view:
1. Guilt free driving of an outstanding luxury car
2. Safety. Keeps me safe while driving in DC traffic
3. Performance - performs like a M-240 Machine Gun - never fails.
4. Doesn't use ISIS Oil
5. Doesn't support Iran, Iraq, Syria or Saudi Arabia or any body who hates America. (subsidies are OK if they prevent funding ISIS/ISIL/TB etc.)
6. CEO is a LEGAL immigrant and works harder than every American I know.
7. Thanks for paying taxes and contributing to America - Elon. Also thanks for building our industrial base with your GIGA factory.
8. Also thanks for repaying your loans with a profit to the tax payer! (GM/Chevy never buying any of your vehicles ever again!)
9. Designed, built and supported by Americans
10. Elon is my hero. True American success story who LEGALLY came to America on a H1B VISA that kept him in school. Good for him and good for America.

 

[deonb]

10. Elon is my hero. True American success story who LEGALLY came to America on a H1B VISA that kept him in school. Good for him and good for America.

The legal H1B system which existed in Elon's time (and mine - I followed the same path), does not exist in the same form anymore. Today Elon's name would have been entered in a lottery system, of which he would have only had a 27% chance of being selected.

i.e. Based on the current LEGAL immigration system, there would have been a 73% chance of Tesla not happening.

That is broken any way you look at it.

 

[adiggs]

You had me for a second Linkster! Similar setup - the Keltec KSG-9 sits nicely in the 3rd row footwell. Double 00 Buckshot in one side and slugs in the other magazine. The Conceal Carry is a S&W M&P Shield and the long gun is my favorite 300 AAC Blackout riding on a Noveske Rifleworks Lower (god rest his soul).

Back to the Shark Tank - lets watch the "experts" debate the impact the Tesla has on the global environment and their perceived attitudes of RWC's on Tesla's.

Robert Boston you are a good man and your assessments are pretty close to reality - thanks for letting this continue - its been fun.

Here are some pros from my right wing kinda of view:
1. Guilt free driving of an outstanding luxury car
2. Safety. Keeps me safe while driving in DC traffic
3. Performance - performs like a M-240 Machine Gun - never fails.
4. Doesn't use ISIS Oil
5. Doesn't support Iran, Iraq, Syria or Saudi Arabia or any body who hates America. (subsidies are OK if they prevent funding ISIS/ISIL/TB etc.)
6. CEO is a LEGAL immigrant and works harder than every American I know.
7. Thanks for paying taxes and contributing to America - Elon. Also thanks for building our industrial base with your GIGA factory.
8. Also thanks for repaying your loans with a profit to the tax payer! (GM/Chevy never buying any of your vehicles ever again!)
9. Designed, built and supported by Americans
10. Elon is my hero. True American success story who LEGALLY came to America on a H1B VISA that kept him in school. Good for him and good for America.

Welcome to the cause Xenoilphobe!

I like that Elon brings people from all over. Your reasons are all good reasons in my book as well, and wouldn't be enough to have me driving a Roadster (and I hope soon, Model X). But my reasons ARE good enough for me, and our reasons do have at least one consequence, that we generate less CO2 as a byproduct of personal transportation. Whether that really matters to either of us or not.

 

[NigelM]

I have trouble anytime people are labeled into some group and then someone asks, "what does this group think about....?" People are individuals, and it's extremely difficult to find meaningful groupings, especially on subjects with as many facets as Tesla.

Agreed. Besides that, this labelling tends to ignore the vast majority of us who are somewhere in the middle of the political spectrum and kinda tired of the extreme left vs right, right vs left ideological fights.

 

[thx1139]

I have right wing relatives who continuously post the negative articles about EV that state that EV cars are more harmful then ICE vehicles. Like the one that was published a couple weeks back. They also confronted me when we purchased our first Volt and called us criminal because we got the federal tax credit. Kept saying the government should never pick winners and losers of course ignoring all the subsidies that the fossil fuel industry gets. Believe they are mostly against Tesla because Tesla took loans from stimulus package (that Tesla has since paid back).

 

[techmaven]

I agree that the labels, if they ever had any real meaning, is now pretty much meaningless. Left and right is meaningless now, as is conservative versus liberal.

However, if you go peruse the various Tesla related articles, whether it be on financial sites or car sites, there is a definite anti-Tesla, anti-EV sentiment pushed out by self described right wingers.

They don't know that Tesla's ATVM loan is a Bush era program, they assume it was Obama. Or that Ford got $5.9 billion from the same program. They don't know when the ZEV program came into being (1990), somehow it is a Tesla thing that Musk hoodwinked the guvment into some sort of crony capitalism thing. They don't know or care about the oil subsidies, but they need to vent about the tax breaks in Nevada for the Gigafactory. This is predominately coming from the right, but part of that is because the trashing of the EPA is a central part of the Republican platform. It isn't conservative vs. liberal ideology, it's about petro dollars and the resulting political influence that has chosen to align themselves with the Republican Party.

Tesla should be welcomed by American capitalists as a tremendous success story, leveraging all that is the best about America and changing the world. But yet... that's not the story being put forth. Part of it is the sheer number of financial interests being challenged by Tesla, as well as the number of people that have placed stock bets against Tesla.

 

[mknox]

I have right wing relatives who continuously post the negative articles about EV that state that EV cars are more harmful then ICE vehicles. Like the one that was published a couple weeks back. They also confronted me when we purchased our first Volt and called us criminal because we got the federal tax credit.

And I've heard the same thing from extreme left wingers. There are those who feel we shouldn't even be driving cars and we should all grow our own food and ride bicycles. Money spent subsidizing companies like Tesla should be going to not-for-profit sustainability projects etc. etc.

 

[Greg R]

I think it is all a matter of what perspective you are coming from. I consider myself fairly conservative - but not across the board on all topics - and I LOVE Tesla. Have had an 85D for a couple months now. In a liberal city like Seattle, I see a LOT of left minded people bashing Tesla for being elitist, typical class envy, for being "fake" green "posers", amongst other things. So it works both ways. Agree with some previous posters - focus on how awesome Tesla is as a company and a car and ignore/laugh at political bashing from the extremists on both sides.

 

[Skotty]

So there has been some falling back on climate change debate in this thread. Here's the thing. Part of my point behind this thread is that one's position on climate change shouldn't negatively impact one's opinion on Tesla. Tesla doesn't appear to be trying to live off of climate change. They aren't building marginal cars and telling people to buy them because of climate change. They are building exceptional cars and telling people to buy them because they are exceptional cars. So regardless of what one thinks their core motivation behind the business is, it shouldn't matter.

Now personally, I don't think climate change should be a partisan issue, but in politics, it often is. This could cause a knee jerk reaction against Tesla from right wing conservatives, but not if they think the way I described above. So what I did think was up for debate was whether or not most conservative right wing folks already feel the way I described or not. If so, I need not concern myself. If not, perhaps I should be more vocal and make this case more often when the topic comes up.

For me, the good to come out of this thread will be that I am more open to discussing the merits of Tesla with folks regardless of any political affiliations.

 

[perkiset]

For me, the good to come out of this thread will be that I am more open to discussing the merits of Tesla with folks regardless of any political affiliations.

I think there's good stuff for everyone in the existence of Tesla. It is good for the environment, whether that is a core driver or not. They are excellent capitalists, they are producing an awesome product at a fair price. They are disruptive, which is great for the market in general. They are seemingly concerned about their footprint, again, whether this is spin or core is immaterial - it just is. And that's good for everyone.

And when my friends, across the entire spectrum, complain about them, for any reason, I just launch once or twice and they come right around

 

[RiverBrick]

..


They don't know that Tesla's ATVM loan is a Bush era program, they assume it was Obama. Or that Ford got $5.9 billion from the same program.

They don't know when the ZEV program came into being (1990), somehow it is a Tesla thing that Musk hoodwinked the guvment into some sort of crony capitalism thing...

1) Good point, but you can thank Mitch Romney and Sarah Palin for lots of the misunderstanding. For those outside of the States, Romney infamously lumped Tesla Motors in with Solyndra as an example of a "loser" company that had received a government loan from the Department of Energy in a 2012 debate. Palin then continued along the same theme with an ignorant 2013 tweet criticizing "Obama loans" and calling Tesla a losing venture selling cars whose batteries brick.

2) If you go even further back, CARB was signed into existence by the person most reverred by the right, then Governor Reagan. At the time, there was a scientist who had proven how exhaust led to smog and to a host of harmful problems. Naturally, his findings were vigorously contested by the oil and automobile industries. Nevertheless, Reagan named the Dutch immigrant to head CARB.

 

[alin3]

I'm pretty liberal. But, I live in a super conservative town, play golf in a super conservative club, and have plenty of super conservative friends. My in-laws are super conservative and are the type that love to forward "Obama=Antichrist" type chain emails.

But, I haven't found a single conservative friend or acquaintance that isn't super impressed with the Model S.

There's a big difference between the "conservative" pundits and talking heads and everyday conservative folks...