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Uber's Autonomous car IS same as Tesla Autopilot: No DMV permit required

Discussion in 'Autonomous Vehicles' started by Tam, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    Uber won't back down from self-driving car fight with DMV

    All Autonomous testers got their CA DMV permits but UBER got their cars without DMV Autonomous Tester permit.

    It was fine until some one caught its autonomous car didn't stop for a red light at a pedestrian cross walk when the pedestrian already started to cross the street.



    That's when DMV told UBER that dude, you need to get the permit.

    UBER is now arguing that it does not require a permit because its operation is no different than Tesla Autopilot as "a driver can remove their hands from the wheel and their feet from the pedals. They're required to still keep their eyes on the road, and may need to retake control at any time."

    What do you think?
     
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  2. Green Pete

    Green Pete Member

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    Tesla never claimed their cars would stop at a stoplight. End of story. Uber is abusing the law.
     
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  3. GoTslaGo

    GoTslaGo Learning Member

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    • Like x 1
  4. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    Tesla does file a Autonomous Tester Permit for all its employees who test its cars on public road but not for each owner.

    I think what UBER means is Autopilot owners do not have to file Autonomous Tester Permits so they should not either.

    I don't agree with UBER but it's an interesting argument because soon, Tesla owners will personally test their own driverless feature too!
     
    • Like x 1
  5. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    #5 Tam, Dec 17, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
    I think I found the answer for Uber's motivation:

    "Uber may be wary of the permit as it requires companies to file accident reports and reports of how many times humans had to take the wheel."

    California Autonomous Vehicle Testing Permit costs only $150 so Uber can certainly afford it.

    However, the requirements are:

    1) Human at the helm at all time to intervene as needed (which Uber can comply easily).
    2) Report to CA DMV of all human interventions and accidents (even zero- or less-than-$750-damage accidents) which as the article above pointed, Uber is not cooperating.

    Uber wants to build confidence for its riders the same way as it is doing now in Pittsburgh because it does not have to disclose that human driver has to intervene at least a dozen of times within 30 minutes.

    It argues ignorance is power! If riders don't know that its system fails a dozen times within 30 minutes then it's Uber's success to build riders' confidence in technology!

    Other companies take a different approach, they would test their systems in private testing facilitates and work out most of the bugs first so they don't have to advertise to the world that the system fails a dozen of times in just half an hour.

    Once they are confident that it works well, they would then bring their test to the roads.

    Autopilot is treated legally the same way as if a driver drives without additional aids and still has to be alert and be in control of the car at all time. Thus, each time the Autopilot hands over to human, drivers do not have report to CA DMV because the emphasis is on a competent alert driver not on a competent driver assisting system.

    Put it in another way: Who is or will be the primary driver?

    For Autopilot it will always be a human driver.

    For Uber, the car will eventually be the primary driver without a human at the wheel. Thus, although currently, it is not a primary driver but practically it is be trained to be one.

    That's why CA DMV needs to keep track of the progress of this "student driver" or autonomous system and mandates a permit.
     
    • Informative x 3
  6. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    In addition, I think, although Tesla does not report its Autopilot performance to CA DMV but it does voluntarily continuously keep records of failures/successes coming from the entire autopilot fleet as a whole (owners' and company's) and periodically share that data to NHTSA so the agency can keep track of Tesla Autopilot progress which will then be used to further support driverless program later on.
     
  7. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Please reference a source to support your statement. If you do not I will regard it as your personal speculation, nothing more.
     
  8. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    My usage of "system failure" may be too harsh.

    The correct wording should be "riders don't know that its system is enhanced by human interventions a dozen times within 30 minutes":

    "In a ride-along on Tuesday, a driver took control of the vehicle more than a dozen times in less than 30 minutes, citing concerns including proximity to a pedestrian and worry about creating gridlock by entering an already crowded intersection. "
     
  9. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    #9 Tam, Dec 21, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2016
    DMV Halts Uber's Self-Driving Pilot by Revoking Registration


    Uber now stops testing its 16 autonomous vehicle fleet in CA.

    That's it?

    Uber's Anthony Levandowski won't go to court to fight for its claim that its operation is no different than Tesla Autopilot and should not need to pay $150 Autonomous Vehicle Testing Permit!

    Anthony Levandowski is a very qualified person with specialty in self-driving engineering, co-found Otto autonomous trucking company, co-founder and technical lead on Google self-driving car project.

    Google went by the book and observed all legal requirements.

    But at Otto, it's another story:

    How Otto Defied Nevada and Scored a $680 Million Payout from Uber

    And now at Uber, was he hoping another big payout by defying CA DMV?

    The rationales that he compares his Uber self-driving program to Tesla Autopilot give Autonomous Vehicle Industry a bad name.
     
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  10. GoTslaGo

    GoTslaGo Learning Member

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    Sad that they are taking such a defiant attitude to State regulations.
     
  11. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    I don't mind engineers who have the confidence to challenge regulations but they would better have solid scientific data to back that up.

    Uber is only blaming their drivers for breaking traffic rules and not their robots.

    OK! So can they back those cases up with their own logs?

    The problem is they won't because they don't want to disclose their logs in the first place which what the refusal of paying $150 permit is all about.

    It's too bad that they can't even act like scientists with such a serious subject in their hometown of San Francisco!
     
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  12. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Uber gives up on their self driving cars in S.F., for now. Uber ends self-driving car program in San Francisco

    @Tam, I'm interested in learning more about your statement that if Uber gets a California DMV permit for their self driving cars that means they will then have to turn over vehicle logs if one of the cars is involved in an accident. Can you give me a link to a source for more info about that? Thanks.
     
  13. Lloyd

    Lloyd Well-Known Member

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    The difference for UBER is that they are carrying passengers for hire.
     
  14. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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  15. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Testing of Autonomous Vehicles
     
  16. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    As JeffK link points out, disengagement reports are listed in there:


    Below is a sample of Delphi's Disengagement Report that summarizes number of incidences and lists out issues:

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/connect/d48f347b-8815-458e-9df2-5ded9f208e9e/adopted_txt.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=d48f347b-8815-458e-9df2-5ded9f208e9e

    CA DMV does not require an Autonomous Car company to turn in their logs BECAUSE of accidents.

    Autonomous Car companies routinely turn in their Disengagement Reports annually whether there was an accident or not.

    Non-Autonomous Car operators do not have to file an accident report if a property damage is less than $750.

    Autonomous Car companies do not have an exemption clause for accidents less than $750 damages. Thus, they have to file Accident Report no matter how much a damage is.
     
  18. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    Now that Uber has packed up its autonomous fleet to Arizona, there's an interesting issue that it discloses in Pittsburgh, PA:

    Here’s why self-driving cars can’t handle bridges

    "...Bridges don't have many environmental cues like surrounding buildings, it's hard for the Uber car to figure out where it is, Krikorian told Bloomberg. GPS helps the car position itself, but not to the accuracy Uber wants."

    That's very strange! How would Uber deal with double deck bridge in San Francisco?

    [​IMG]

    Much simpler Tesla Autopilot should do fine as long as there are clearly marked lanes or there's a leading car in front.
     
    • Informative x 1
  19. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    I really hate how articles like this make blanket statements regarding all self driving car implementations:
     
  20. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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