Ugh. Another Model S fire - 2013-11-06

[jerry33]

So this was like an entire trailer hitch like the kind the trailer rental companies clamp to the bumpers?

 

[Raffy.Roma]

So this was like an entire trailer hitch like the kind the trailer rental companies clamp to the bumpers?

Yes Jerry. I think that somewhere on TMC there was a picture showing it on the road. The hitch was huge.

 

[JRP3]

So this was like an entire trailer hitch like the kind the trailer rental companies clamp to the bumpers?

I'm guessing it's a three ball hitch similar to this:

In the middle of the lane, there was a rusty three-pronged trailer hitch that was sticking up with the ball up in the air.

That's a 2 inch square tube with a ball sticking up about 3-4 inches on top of it, so 5-6 inches total height. The lowered suspension would hit it, the non air suspension might just clear it. Seems these things get dropped onto the road rather frequently when the pin in them falls out.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Because of the shape of such a hitch the momentum of the force applied to the bottom of the Model S has been enormous IMO. Expecially if the balls hit the bottom of the Model S. :scared:

 

[SteveG3]

The driver will undoubtedly be providing quite favorable testimony to the NHTSA. Their interest is personal safety and not vehicle damage.

Curt, extremely well said. Let's hope that rational approach carries the day at NHTSA.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

A three-pronged hitch could have been something like this:

Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs more

Edit: JRP3 beat me to that.

Thanks, Juris, for a well-written blog post. Hope you get a replacement S real soon.

 

[SteveG3]

fwiw, love the picture in the blogpost as well. really responds to the distorted image of Juris' actual experience that has been suggested up until now.

 

[Electroman]

'personal safety, not vehicle damage' - well said.

 

[swon]

I think I can relate to what you mean. That said, this is not about driving fast in a sleek car, which hugs the road. This is about battery technology. I did not hesitate to defend Tesla against what appeared to be baseless sensationalism after the first incident in Kent, WA. Unfortunately, the numbers are starting to reveal that Tesla's battery technology might be at significantly greater risk of thermal events when compared to what the LEAF or the Volt are using.

There is only one Volt fire, which has been reported. In a vehicle that was crash tested and left stored against manufacturer recommendations for three weeks before the fire started. No fires have been reported for the LEAF anywhere. Between these two vehicles, they shipped probably ten times the volume of the Model S and have about ten times more fleet miles with no fire incident. There have been severe accidents involving LEAFs and Volts. One of the ActiveE drivers was involved in a very serious accident, which left the front battery deformed and with a gaping 8-inch hole from hitting a metallic object. The car did not catch fire. BMW uses a chemistry, which is similar to the Volt.

Yes, it would be nice to run something over on the highway and not have your car catch on fire. Drivetrain damage on an ICE vehicle in that situation, sure, but your car typically doesn't burn down. Despite the safety features (the car's mechanical safety features as well as the "pull over now" software system), it is disconcerting that a fire can start simply from running something over in the road. The driver mentioned that the object was a "three-pronged trailer hitch that was sticking up with the ball up in the air". Unlike the "large metal object" that caused the first publicly-known fire and punched a 3-inch hole into that Tesla with 25 tons worth of force, this sounds quite a bit smaller and had the round ball, not a sharp end, sticking up in the air, and yet apparently still had enough power to start a fire & total the car. I am very interested to hear Tesla's findings on what happened. I think we all understand that it was a freak accident and are grateful that the driver made it out safely, but it is also worrisome that you can simply hit a small metal object (with a round part sticking up, no less) on the highway and wind up losing your car

 

[Mikial]

Yes, it would be nice to run something over on the highway and not have your car catch on fire. Drivetrain damage on an ICE vehicle in that situation, sure, but your car typically doesn't burn down. Despite the safety features (the car's mechanical safety features as well as the "pull over now" software system), it is disconcerting that a fire can start simply from running something over in the road. The driver mentioned that the object was a "three-pronged trailer hitch that was sticking up with the ball up in the air". Unlike the "large metal object" that caused the first publicly-known fire and punched a 3-inch hole into that Tesla with 25 tons worth of force, this sounds quite a bit smaller and had the round ball, not a sharp end, sticking up in the air, and yet apparently still had enough power to start a fire & total the car. I am very interested to hear Tesla's findings on what happened. I think we all understand that it was a freak accident and are grateful that the driver made it out safely, but it is also worrisome that you can simply hit a small metal object (with a round part sticking up, no less) on the highway and wind up losing your car

The issue would be the same as the issue with the Seattle incident. Hitting the ball would cause the stem of the trailer hitch to shift either upwards or downwards in would result in the same "pole vault" effect...

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Link to commentary from the owner of the Model S that caught fire in Tennessee this week:

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/model-s-owner-tennessee

Final paragraph:

"This experience does not in any way make me think that the Tesla Model S is an unsafe car. I would buy another one in a heartbeat."

Good to see Tesla responding, and I'm very thankful that Dr. Shibayama wrote such a detailed and ultimately positive account of what happened.

This should put a damper on the rampant negative speculation on the safety of the Model S. While I don't think this will put to rest everyone's concerns, I think that it will inspire confidence for most potential customers.

 

[swon]

The issue would be the same as the issue with the Seattle incident. Hitting the ball would cause the stem of the trailer hitch to shift either upwards or downwards in would result in the same "pole vault" effect...

And short of reinforcing the bottom plate (as discussed, perhaps a shift from 1/4" aluminum to 1/4" steel, at the cost of more weight & a higher price to protect against a rare event), I don't know what else they would do. Initially I thought a stronger from lip with a catchplate, but as you mentioned, that could still produce a pole vault effect further down the chassis. Plus aluminum is a fairly soft material, depending on the grade, and going to a stronger steel or alloy plate could affect crumple zones and how the Tesla handles in a crash. Lots of technical questions for the Tesla engineers to figure out. To me, however, the results have been good: three accidents, three fires, all occupants escaped without major injuries, and all three owners want another one.

The first owner, Robert Carlson, said "I am still a big fan of your car and look forward to getting back into one." The second owner, according to Tesla's spokeswoman Liz Jarvis-Shean, said he was "appreciative of the safety and performance of the car and has asked if we can expedite delivery of his next Model S." The third owner, Juris Shibayama, MD, said "This experience does not in any way make me think that the Tesla Model S is an unsafe car. I would buy another one in a heartbeat." Short of fireworks, there are very few products that catch on fire that would make consumers want to buy them again, so those are pretty amazing testimonials. These people all felt like the car saved their lives and aren't jumping ship to something else.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Unlike the "large metal object" that caused the first publicly-known fire and punched a 3-inch hole into that Tesla with 25 tons worth of force, this sounds quite a bit smaller and had the round ball, not a sharp end, sticking up in the air, and yet apparently still had enough power to start a fire & total the car. I am very interested to hear Tesla's findings on what happened. I think we all understand that it was a freak accident and are grateful that the driver made it out safely, but it is also worrisome that you can simply hit a small metal object (with a round part sticking up, no less) on the highway and wind up losing your car

A tow hitch isn't exactly a small object. A Model S weighs 4700 lbs., and at 70 MPH, has tremendous kinetic energy.

I ran both a Google and Bing search for "ran over a tow hitch -Tesla" to look for similar incidents not involving a Tesla vehicle. This type of accident seems to be an extremely rare occurrence, because I could only find 1 other accident of this type, involving a Honda S2000 roadster. The Honda was damaged but luckily avoided breach or loss of oil pan, fuel tank, or exhaust system.

This was IMO another freak accident, with very unfortunate timing.

 

[Sus]

A three-pronged hitch could have been something like this:

Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs more

The product in your image is not a trailer tow hitch. That product a trailer hitch mount (different from a trailer hitch). It looks like it's something that you put onto your trailer tow hitch in order to mount the trailer onto the hitch.

Here's an image of a variety of tow hitches.

A tow hitch a very large and heavy piece if metal (up to 1800 pounds) and its almost the width of your car and gets screwed on to the bottom of your car with just the tow connector showing. Once it's installed to the bottom of your car you can tow a variety of items. Here's a picture of a tow hitch installed on a car.

 

[JRP3]

This was IMO another freak accident, with very unfortunate timing.

Although we do know that another Model S also ran over and hit a similar tow hitch which dented the pack but did not result in fire. I did some quick searching and it does not seem that uncommon for trailer hitches to be flying around the highways:

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/823653-ran-over-multi-ball-hitch/
http://www.bangshift.com/forum/showthread.php/38335-Lucky-driver-almost-got-balled-Trailer-balled
http://www.pe.com/local-news/rivers...n-interstate-10-devastates-banning-family.ece
http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2008/06/trailer_hitch_through_the_wind.php
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-05-26/news/1994146030_1_hitch-bauer-windshield

 

[Seesaw]

Hi, newcomer here from Australia. Eagerly awaiting the car's release down here.

i have a few thoughts on the fire issue. I believe the real issue is the lack of ground clearance on the air suspended models at freeway speeds.

most modern freeways have thousands of cars pass a point on the freeway daily, debris that falls on the road is collected when it hits the traffic, so the volume of traffic effectively clears the roads.

the problem is that because the Model S sits so low, it will hit anything and everything too small to be hit by every other car. The piece of debris that immobilised the latest Model S, may have been travelled over by thousands of other cars. If the debris was bigger it would have been hit by one of the 200 Camrys that probably travelled that section of freeway before the Model S came along.

Really the Model S should have similar ground clearance to most other cars, otherwise it becomes the freeway debris plow. I don't mind the idea of driving a very low car or a car with a battery back under the floor, but I don't like the idea of combining the two.

 

[evme]

Just out of curiosity. I am seeing a pattern here that the fire happens when drivers hit something, the car tells them there is an issue and they continue driving hoping to make it home. Could the 1st and 3rd fire been prevented if the drivers automatically after colliding with the debris listened to the instructions?

If that is the case, I think the best thing owners could do is if they collide with some debris and get a warning, pull over by the side ASAP. The longer the car is running, the more opportunity there is to build up heat, no?

 

[InTheShadows]

A hitch would be the bracket that attaches to the bottom of the vehicle, the draw bar is the object above with the three balls on it. It would be extremely unlikely for a hitch to fall off a car (although he did say rusty which makes it plausible), the draw bar would be very believable. Just forgetting to put the pin in would result in losing it, or just placing it on the bumper and driving off forgetting about it would do it too.

I haven't read every post in this thread for obvious reasons so sorry if the link below and commentary is a duplicate.

Accident big rig on 101 NB at Woodside Rd. on 10/18/2013 around 10:50AM - YouTube

It's the big rig that crashed through the barrier into oncoming traffic and a Model S appears out of the dust cloud and goes airborne when it strikes debris.

That car never caught fire and looking at the video there had to be extensive damage to the car and probably the battery pack too. If Tesla got their hands on that car and there was pack damage that would be a good video to post along with a PR showing that not all debris strikes result in fires.

 

[Sus]

A hitch would be the bracket that attaches to the bottom of the vehicle, the draw bar is the object above with the three balls on it. It would be extremely unlikely for a hitch to fall off a car (although he did say rusty which makes it plausible), the draw bar would be very believable. Just forgetting to put the pin in would result in losing it, or just placing it on the bumper and driving off forgetting about it would do it too.

It is highly unlikely that the object that the driver drove over was simply the draw bar object. The draw bar object is small and very unlikely to cause the amount of damage that was caused.

Also, the owner of the car wrote "Had I not been in a Tesla, that object could have punched through the floor and caused me serious harm." A draw bar object is not large enough for anyone to suspect that it could have the potential to punch through the floor of any car to cause serious harm.

It makes the most sense to me that the object on the road was the actual tow hitch with the draw bar ball still attached to it. (As I wrote earlier, the tow hitch is a very large, heavy object that goes almost the width of your car.) Though I agree with you that it is difficult to imagine the actual tow hitch falling off a car, if it was improperly installed or if it was rusty (as the owner said it was) or otherwise compromised, I could imagine it happening.

 

[JRP3]

It is highly unlikely that the object that the driver drove over was simply the draw bar object. The draw bar object is small and very unlikely to cause the amount of damage that was caused.

The lever effect could in fact do just that. Imagine driving over the the hitch ball with the square tube section pointing at you. You hit the top of the ball which causes the bar to rotate up into the bottom of the pack. That could cause a real pole vault event.

Also, the owner of the car wrote "Had I not been in a Tesla, that object could have punched through the floor and caused me serious harm." A draw bar object is not large enough for anyone to suspect that it could have the potential to punch through the floor of any car to cause serious harm.

The square tube on most hitches is probably at least 8 inches long and could punch a few inches up into a floor, but he may have just been relaying what it felt like, not that it actually could have.