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UK Government EV and Environmental Policy

Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by dpeilow, Apr 15, 2009.

  1. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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  2. 2blue4u

    2blue4u I'm blooooo

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    You beat me too it :)

    £5,000 too. This sounds far too generous for our government.
     
  3. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    More: BBC NEWS | Business | Q&A: Electric cars

    That's handy. :wink:
     
  4. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Tesla Roadster on ITV News in UK

    Hi everyone, first post after some months of following the forum.

    I just switched channels to ITV1 and caught the very tail end of a news report about electric cars. (They are a hot topic with the media at present in the UK.)

    The journalist's final live piece to camera featured him beside a Tesla Roadster (black). He plugged in the car. Final words "Goodbye from Norfolk":smile:. So I think we can safely assume he was at Lotus in Hethel.

    Hoping to find a link to the video to post.

    If anyone else finds it please share.

    Andrew
     
  5. graham

    graham Active Member

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    Welcome, Andrew!
     
  6. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Thanks for the welcome, Graham.

    I did find a different ITV News piece linked here: Articles | Cash boost plan for green motorists - ITV News

    Unfortunately this doesn't mention the Tesla, and it also by inference perpetuate a number of myths about electric cars:

    1. They showed charging at one of the couple of hundred charging points in London. Then infrerred that you need to use a "Charging Point" to fill up an electric car and showed a map with voiceover that "outside London there are only a handful of charging points". Completely missing the point that most people will charge overnight! I think when vendors lend their cars to news media they have to insist that charging at home be shown.
    2. The long tailpipe: Images of smokestacks from power stations and related voiceover. And then to cap it Friends of the Earth spokesman David Powell apparentlyh supporting the long tail pipe argument (which is not tenable - on the UK electric grid mix of 537g CO2/kWh the Tesla Roadster is around 5 times lower carbon than a Lotus Elise S; over the next 20 years the UK grid is targeted to drop below 50g/kWh at which time the Roadtser will be around 50 times lower carbon than that same Lotus Elise S - for more details see my comments here and here ).

    On the other hand:

    3. They mention you won't just be saving the environment but also lots of money by charging rather than filling with gas (petrol for our UK readers!)

    4. The report indicates that major manufacturers will be introducing electric cars - they show a Mini E

    But:

    5. In introducing the Mini E, the reporter calls the main vehicle he had been driving in the report (a 2+2 NEV, technically a Quadricycle in Europe, called the Mega City) a "souped up Dinky toy". Not sure whether this is praise or scorn!

    Andrew
     
  7. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Of course, because this has been announced by the current government, the right wing press (which up until now has been pretty supportive of the likes of Tesla) goes on the attack over it:

    Plan to increase popularity of electric cars stalls over subsidy snag

    ANALYSIS: electric cars are great - just don't drive over 60 miles


    The Daily Wail is particularly full of FUD:

    There's no doubt they are the future. But even with a £5,000 subsidy electric cars are too slow and costly - and not very green | Mail Online
     
  8. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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  9. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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  10. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    dpeilow, I completely agree. I saw the Daily Mail article reviewed on Sky News this morning and was incensed by the inferences drawn by the reviewer from that and another article in (I think) The Times. So incensed I went out and bought a copy of the Daily Mail to see if it was as bad as it seemed (mad I know - rewarding these people!) Anyway - it was worse than my already low expectations!

    The problem is that in my experience Daily Mail readers believe it - all of every article they swallow hook line and sinker and it becomes their immediate strongly-held belief.

    I considered writing a letter to the editor, but a quick glance at the letters page reveals an absence of any real debate.

    However I do note that there is a clear factual error: They state that ..."when BBC's Top Gear team tested it they found the battery went flat after less than 60 miles". This is documentedly un-true. Anyone think its worth complaining to the Press Complaints Commission?

    Also I note the very same 60 miles appears in the Times article's first line and headline. Who has been briefing against electric cars? Inquiring minds want to know. And who is out there briefing in their favour in the UK? I get the sense no-one is.

    Andrew

    PS £5000 in 2011: great way to kill the EV industry's chances in the UK between now and then.
     
  11. mpt

    mpt Electrics are back

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  12. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Wow... just wow. Also, interesting Roadster they have there:
    article-1170871-047E8528000005DC-422_233x270_popup.jpg
     
  13. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    David's reply was addressed poorly later.

    This article and comments have a lot of negative spew about toxic batteries.

    Are these all the pro battery tech arguments? (feel free to rewrite)

    1 Lead batteries don't go to landfills. They are 98 percent recycled these days because there are programs in place and the lead has exchange value.

    2. Lithium is really expensive. It would be like drinking a six pack of soda out of gold plated cans. You would definitely want your money back for them.

    3. Lithium is recyclable. Over the life of your petrol car you burn thousands of gallons of oil based products like gasoline or diesel. It just goes into the air we breathe. Every 3000 miles you change out your oil at the lube shop (about two barrels over the life of a car). That toxic waste is sent for recycling just like the lithium batteries will be every 100,000 miles. Since we are starting with a clean slate Lithium recycling programs are already in place.

    4. Lithium is Non-Toxic. It is even eatable! You may even know someone taking lithium.

    5. Lithium is the XX most common element on the planet. And since are we simply using it to store energy and can reuse it, we don't need as much as a finite fuel that we just burn away.l
     
  14. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    I want to address this point. While Bob Lutz made a flippant comment about how safe lithium is in the past that doesn't mean it's not toxic and nobody should be eating it. And, I doubt that any lithium from EV batteries is going to be left laying around for people to nibble on for the other reasons you pointed out. But I feel the quote above is very inaccurate.

    While lithium is used as a medication it's used in very tiny amounts b/c it is HIGHLY toxic and can be fatal in overdose, even in chronic mild overdoses. Most medications are like this...in proper doses they're medicinal, in higher than medicinal they become poisons. Lithium happens to be one of the more toxic medications.

    Toxicity, Lithium: eMedicine Emergency Medicine
     
  15. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    #15 dpeilow, Apr 17, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
    OK I merged the various threads on this topic.

    Thanks for the backing up guys. I didn't have enough time to write a better comment on those stories this morning before having to get to work, but something needed to be done to address the stance they were taking. With hindsight I might have got a better link, but needed a source that Mail readers might just have heard of.

    I've just been on there to reply to the replies.

    I find it interesting that Ben Webster has seemingly gone anti-electric. Both he and the Times have published positive articles before. Now we have the above and also recently this headline: All aboard the electric bus . . . Please hold tight for 15 minutes while we recharge -Times Online Maybe he has been talking to fellow-staffer Clarkson at some recent Times night out...

    Also, my comment there (similar to the Mail one) did not get published. That's the second pro-electric comment from me they have not published in recent weeks. Andrew's did, however.
     
  16. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    article-1170871-047E8528000005DC-422_233x270_popup.jpg

    This article is so filled with incorrect information it's hard to know where to start. It can be summed up by pointing out that the car shown is not even a Tesla Roadster. How hard would that be to check?
     
  17. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    #17 dpeilow, Apr 17, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
    You guys need to get on there and post some replies too! VFX, perhaps you could start with that comment.

    And while you are there, please vote down "Matthew from Oxford". :wink:


    Edit: It would particularly be good if any owners could pipe up and say what the real world range is at ~70mph...
     
  18. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Good point.

    But I have my hands full with this country. :rolleyes:
     
  19. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Well, FUD on the internet knows no borders...

    The trouble is that for another couple of months we have no British owners ready to come in and counter this type of story. The Clarkson fan club can run riot. Come to think of it, we have no British prospective owners popping up anywhere (no I'm not going to 'do a vfx').

    I can say things like 'I've had a go, and...' but I'm sure I'll get called out as a stooge.

    Anyway, it's not like we regularly call in American support to suppress the forces of the right... :wink:
     
  20. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    OK OK, I made my statement. Now someone else needs to wise up all those Hydrogen commenters...
     

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