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Ultimate/future max charge rate of V3 superchargers?

Discussion in 'Supercharging & Charging Infrastructure' started by Tectonic, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. Tectonic

    Tectonic Member

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    So the Model 3 and Y LR can charge at up to 250 kW, while having only ~75 kWh battery capacity. Just assuming the same C-rate, a 100 kWh battery (current S/X capacity) could charge at ~330 kW. It's hard to believe that Tesla will let the charging rate of their less expensive vehicles (3/Y) exceed that of the S/X for very much longer. Also, in the next 1-2 years, Tesla will release the Cybertruck and Roadster, which will presumably have even larger capacity, enabling an even higher potential charge rate.

    It doesn't seem to make much sense that Tesla would switch to a "V4" supercharger anytime soon, because they're just getting started in V3 rollout. It seems to make more sense that they may have baked in extra capacity in V3 superchargers, but don't yet have the vehicles to utilize it. After all, it wouldn't make any sense for Tesla to advertise that the V3 chargers are capable of 350 kW (or whatever) if no vehicle can actually charge at that. V2 chargers in the past received a relatively modest bump via software from 120->150 kW. Do we have any data to suggest whether V3 superchargers might ultimately be capable of higher speeds, and what this theoretical max might be?

    I believe Elon once referred to 350 kW charging (related to the Porche Taycan) as a mere child's toy, so perhaps 250 kW won't be Tesla's max rate for long. Perhaps we'll find out more at Battery day...
     
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  2. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    Ha! Uh, no, that update was not software. They went through and had to retrofit every one of those to put in the extra charging units to add the extra power capacity to bring them up to 150 kW.
     
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  3. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    Given that the DC vehicle output of the V3 Supercharger cabinets explicitly says 250kW, I would not expect any vehicle to take more than that. The big improvement for future Tesla vehicles would be to take 250kW for a longer period of time. A LR Model 3 can only take 250kW for 5-10 minutes. It will be a while before there is a Supercharger V4 with higher vehicle charging power. I would actually expect Tesla to implement higher pack voltages before they increase charging current beyond V3 levels.

    My speculation for the next improvement that will actually be released is the Tesla Semi Megacharger. I expect this will leverage SC V3 hardware with all 4 vehicle channels connected to the Tesla Semi proprietary connector. Integrated battery storage will allow sustained 875kW (300kW from the grid and 575kW from the DC bus) until the required charge taper. This is possible with the existing V3 Supercharger hardware.
     
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  4. Tectonic

    Tectonic Member

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    Interesting. The Tesla blog post announcing this said: "Additionally, we are also unlocking 145kW charge rates for our 12,000+ V2 Superchargers over the coming weeks." I guess I was taking the reference to "unlocking" this capability as meaning software, but it's certainly short on details. I'd love to learn more if you have a link!

    Good points. Did the V2 cabinets always list 150 kW (or do they even now)?

    That would be impressive. Where does the 300 kW grid limit come in?

    Maybe they'll just put a second charging port on the other side of plaid cybertruck for dual charging from adjacent stalls! (joking!). :)
     
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  5. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    The V2 cabinets have 160kVA gross input limit from the grid. Take off the efficiency loss converting to DC and you get about 150kW.

    The V3 cabinets have 350kVA gross input limit from the grid. I rounded down to 300kW DC. It's probably closer to 325kW DC if you use the same efficiency as V2 160kVA to 150kW.
     
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  6. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    They didn't put unused chargers in the cabinets. Based on the older cars, that could do up to 40A in the onboard charger, those were 10 kW each. So the original version 1 Superchargers were 90 kW with a stack of 9 of those. Then the first version 2 ones were 120 kW, where they put in 12 of them. Then I am a little less clear on how the transition was happening moving to 145/150 kW because I think they were switching over the charger type from the 40A ones to the 48A ones, and that might be what they are using in the newer version 2 Superchargers.
     
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  7. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    I seem to recall that there also used to be a minimum reserve of 30kW for a second vehicle. Later they changed it so 100% could go to one car. It also has to switch a whole charger over as one car tapers down and relinquishes that power to the other vehicle.
    The V2 charger cabinet is 192A per phase. 12 modules makes it 16A per phase per module, just like the 48A single phase vehicle charger. In North American cars, it just uses all three charger phases in parallel to make 48A.
     
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  8. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    For the first part, yes, the did have a minimum 30kW for the secondary car, but I've never heard of that second part. I think it went the other way, that other than just a small minimum for the secondary car, I did start seeing a lot of reports here of Superchargers immediately switching to an even half and half split when there were two cars on it. I don't know if we saw enough data spread across different cars and locations to confirm if that was really a standard methodology change or not.
     
  9. Tectonic

    Tectonic Member

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    This is also interesting because as more vehicles can take 250 kW charging for longer, the illusion of "no more power sharing" (as quoted from the same Tesla blog post) will become apparent. Unless they widely deploy integrated battery storage, like you suggest for the Megacharger, that is...
     
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  10. _jmk

    _jmk Member

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    V3 cabinets in the EU state 1000V, 425A. That would mean sometime in the future some magical car with 1000V pack can pull 425kW out of them.
     
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  11. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    Please post a picture of the rating placard.
     
  12. _jmk

    _jmk Member

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    Here you go.
     

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  13. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    That is the pedestal, not the Supercharger cabinet. In addition, that is the continuous current rating. V3 Superchargers push more than 600A for short periods of time. Also, today's Tesla vehicles are all well below 500VDC pack voltage, most are around 400VDC max. In theory, that pedestal could be connected to a different cabinet that could output up to 1000VDC to a vehicle like a Taycan with a high voltage pack.

    This is the V3 rating placard from a North American Supercharger installation. I have no reason to believe that the ones installed in Europe are different.
     

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