Ultimate/future max charge rate of V3 superchargers?

[Tectonic]

So the Model 3 and Y LR can charge at up to 250 kW, while having only ~75 kWh battery capacity. Just assuming the same C-rate, a 100 kWh battery (current S/X capacity) could charge at ~330 kW. It's hard to believe that Tesla will let the charging rate of their less expensive vehicles (3/Y) exceed that of the S/X for very much longer. Also, in the next 1-2 years, Tesla will release the Cybertruck and Roadster, which will presumably have even larger capacity, enabling an even higher potential charge rate.

It doesn't seem to make much sense that Tesla would switch to a "V4" supercharger anytime soon, because they're just getting started in V3 rollout. It seems to make more sense that they may have baked in extra capacity in V3 superchargers, but don't yet have the vehicles to utilize it. After all, it wouldn't make any sense for Tesla to advertise that the V3 chargers are capable of 350 kW (or whatever) if no vehicle can actually charge at that. V2 chargers in the past received a relatively modest bump via software from 120->150 kW. Do we have any data to suggest whether V3 superchargers might ultimately be capable of higher speeds, and what this theoretical max might be?

I believe Elon once referred to 350 kW charging (related to the Porche Taycan) as a mere child's toy, so perhaps 250 kW won't be Tesla's max rate for long. Perhaps we'll find out more at Battery day...

 

[Rocky_H]

V2 chargers in the past received a relatively modest bump via software from 120->150 kW.

Ha! Uh, no, that update was not software. They went through and had to retrofit every one of those to put in the extra charging units to add the extra power capacity to bring them up to 150 kW.

 

[miimura]

Given that the DC vehicle output of the V3 Supercharger cabinets explicitly says 250kW, I would not expect any vehicle to take more than that. The big improvement for future Tesla vehicles would be to take 250kW for a longer period of time. A LR Model 3 can only take 250kW for 5-10 minutes. It will be a while before there is a Supercharger V4 with higher vehicle charging power. I would actually expect Tesla to implement higher pack voltages before they increase charging current beyond V3 levels.

My speculation for the next improvement that will actually be released is the Tesla Semi Megacharger. I expect this will leverage SC V3 hardware with all 4 vehicle channels connected to the Tesla Semi proprietary connector. Integrated battery storage will allow sustained 875kW (300kW from the grid and 575kW from the DC bus) until the required charge taper. This is possible with the existing V3 Supercharger hardware.

 

[Tectonic]

Ha! Uh, no, that update was not software. They went through and had to retrofit every one of those to put in the extra charging units to add the extra power capacity to bring them up to 150 kW.

Interesting. The Tesla blog post announcing this said: "Additionally, we are also unlocking 145kW charge rates for our 12,000+ V2 Superchargers over the coming weeks." I guess I was taking the reference to "unlocking" this capability as meaning software, but it's certainly short on details. I'd love to learn more if you have a link!

Given that the DC vehicle output of the V3 Supercharger cabinets explicitly says 250kW, I would not expect any vehicle to take more than that. The big improvement for future Tesla vehicles would be to take 250kW for a longer period of time. A LR Model 3 can only take 250kW for 5-10 minutes. It will be a while before there is a Supercharger V4 with higher vehicle charging power. I would actually expect Tesla to implement higher pack voltages before they increase charging current beyond V3 levels.

Good points. Did the V2 cabinets always list 150 kW (or do they even now)?

My speculation for the next improvement that will actually be released is the Tesla Semi Megacharger. I expect this will leverage SC V3 hardware with all 4 vehicle channels connected to the Tesla Semi proprietary connector. Integrated battery storage will allow sustained 875kW (300kW from the grid and 575kW from the DC bus) until the required charge taper. This is possible with the existing V3 Supercharger hardware.

That would be impressive. Where does the 300 kW grid limit come in?

Maybe they'll just put a second charging port on the other side of plaid cybertruck for dual charging from adjacent stalls! (joking!).

 

[miimura]

Good points. Did the V2 cabinets always list 150 kW (or do they even now)?

That would be impressive. Where does the 300 kW grid limit come in?

The V2 cabinets have 160kVA gross input limit from the grid. Take off the efficiency loss converting to DC and you get about 150kW.

The V3 cabinets have 350kVA gross input limit from the grid. I rounded down to 300kW DC. It's probably closer to 325kW DC if you use the same efficiency as V2 160kVA to 150kW.

 

[Rocky_H]

Interesting. The Tesla blog post announcing this said: "Additionally, we are also unlocking 145kW charge rates for our 12,000+ V2 Superchargers over the coming weeks." I guess I was taking the reference to "unlocking" this capability as meaning software, but it's certainly short on details. I'd love to learn more if you have a link!

Good points. Did the V2 cabinets always list 150 kW (or do they even now)?

They didn't put unused chargers in the cabinets. Based on the older cars, that could do up to 40A in the onboard charger, those were 10 kW each. So the original version 1 Superchargers were 90 kW with a stack of 9 of those. Then the first version 2 ones were 120 kW, where they put in 12 of them. Then I am a little less clear on how the transition was happening moving to 145/150 kW because I think they were switching over the charger type from the 40A ones to the 48A ones, and that might be what they are using in the newer version 2 Superchargers.

 

[miimura]

They didn't put unused chargers in the cabinets. Based on the older cars, that could do up to 40A in the onboard charger, those were 10 kW each. So the original version 1 Superchargers were 90 kW with a stack of 9 of those. Then the first version 2 ones were 120 kW, where they put in 12 of them. Then I am a little less clear on how the transition was happening moving to 145/150 kW because I think they were switching over the charger type from the 40A ones to the 48A ones, and that might be what they are using in the newer version 2 Superchargers.

I seem to recall that there also used to be a minimum reserve of 30kW for a second vehicle. Later they changed it so 100% could go to one car. It also has to switch a whole charger over as one car tapers down and relinquishes that power to the other vehicle.
The V2 charger cabinet is 192A per phase. 12 modules makes it 16A per phase per module, just like the 48A single phase vehicle charger. In North American cars, it just uses all three charger phases in parallel to make 48A.

 

[Rocky_H]

I seem to recall that there also used to be a minimum reserve of 30kW for a second vehicle. Later they changed it so 100% could go to one car.

For the first part, yes, the did have a minimum 30kW for the secondary car, but I've never heard of that second part. I think it went the other way, that other than just a small minimum for the secondary car, I did start seeing a lot of reports here of Superchargers immediately switching to an even half and half split when there were two cars on it. I don't know if we saw enough data spread across different cars and locations to confirm if that was really a standard methodology change or not.

 

[Tectonic]

Given that the DC vehicle output of the V3 Supercharger cabinets explicitly says 250kW, I would not expect any vehicle to take more than that. The big improvement for future Tesla vehicles would be to take 250kW for a longer period of time. A LR Model 3 can only take 250kW for 5-10 minutes. It will be a while before there is a Supercharger V4 with higher vehicle charging power. I would actually expect Tesla to implement higher pack voltages before they increase charging current beyond V3 levels.

My speculation for the next improvement that will actually be released is the Tesla Semi Megacharger. I expect this will leverage SC V3 hardware with all 4 vehicle channels connected to the Tesla Semi proprietary connector. Integrated battery storage will allow sustained 875kW (300kW from the grid and 575kW from the DC bus) until the required charge taper. This is possible with the existing V3 Supercharger hardware.

This is also interesting because as more vehicles can take 250 kW charging for longer, the illusion of "no more power sharing" (as quoted from the same Tesla blog post) will become apparent. Unless they widely deploy integrated battery storage, like you suggest for the Megacharger, that is...

 

[_jmk]

V3 cabinets in the EU state 1000V, 425A. That would mean sometime in the future some magical car with 1000V pack can pull 425kW out of them.

 

[miimura]

V3 cabinets in the EU state 1000V, 425A. That would mean sometime in the future some magical car with 1000V pack can pull 425kW out of them.

Please post a picture of the rating placard.

 

[_jmk]

Please post a picture of the rating placard.

Here you go.

 

[miimura]

Here you go.

That is the pedestal, not the Supercharger cabinet. In addition, that is the continuous current rating. V3 Superchargers push more than 600A for short periods of time. Also, today's Tesla vehicles are all well below 500VDC pack voltage, most are around 400VDC max. In theory, that pedestal could be connected to a different cabinet that could output up to 1000VDC to a vehicle like a Taycan with a high voltage pack.

This is the V3 rating placard from a North American Supercharger installation. I have no reason to believe that the ones installed in Europe are different.

 

[Tectonic]

Elon just tweeted about "upgrading" the supercharger network to 300 kW max:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1415615795112120321

Not clear what that "upgrade" will entail, but interesting...

 

[_jmk]

That supercharger update would not do a thing in the EU: all s&x are capped to 142kW max and 3/y might hold the 300kW for less than a minute.

 

[wws]

That supercharger update would not do a thing in the EU: all s&x are capped to 142kW max and 3/y might hold the 300kW for less than a minute.

Don't the Ravens go up to 200 kW?

It seems that the newest S, and soon X, are more like the 3/Y electrically. So I'd guess they should easily support 250 kW. Hold that rate longer too - due to having a 100 kWh pack instead the 50, 75, or 82 kWh pack of the 3/Y.

Methinks Elon wants to one-up Porsche again. Taycan maxes out at 270 kW using their 800V charging system and 350 kW chargers.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Don't the Ravens go up to 200 kW?

It seems that the newest S, and soon X, are more like the 3/Y electrically. So I'd guess they should easily support 250 kW. Hold that rate longer too - due to having a 100 kWh pack instead the 50, 75, or 82 kWh pack of the 3/Y.

Methinks Elon wants to one-up Porsche again. Taycan maxes out at 270 kW using their 800V charging system and 350 kW chargers.

Actually, early Ravens can charge at up to 225 kW in some markets, thanks to a software update: Tesla increases Model S and X Supercharging rate to 225 kW

Later Ravens since mid-2020 can charge at 250 kW in some markets, thanks to newer wiring: Tesla updates Model S and Model X Supercharging rate to 250 kW

In our non-Raven 2017 S100D, we've gotten close to 190 kW.

As @MP3Mike mentions below, European cars are limited to 142 kW when using the CCS Combo 2 adapter.

 

[MP3Mike]

Don't the Ravens go up to 200 kW?

Not in the EU because they require an adapter to use V3 Superchargers, which limits the charge rate.

 

[_jmk]

Don't the Ravens go up to 200 kW?

It seems that the newest S, and soon X, are more like the 3/Y electrically. So I'd guess they should easily support 250 kW. Hold that rate longer too - due to having a 100 kWh pack instead the 50, 75, or 82 kWh pack of the 3/Y.

Methinks Elon wants to one-up Porsche again. Taycan maxes out at 270 kW using their 800V charging system and 350 kW chargers.

In the US G/H packs can maintain 250kW up to 27% (vs 35% for the plaid S), but here in the EU we are stuck at whopping 142kW for ALL S/X. E-tron charges at higher rate still at 79%

 

[miimura]

IMHO, Tesla needs to put a native CCS charge port on the refreshed Model S and X before releasing it in Europe and other markets where the Model 3 has native CCS.