Umm.. unions, innovation, autoparts?? or something

[dsm363]

As I understand it there is a pretty big difference. A Prius is driven by both its electric and ICE motors where the Volt is driven only by the electric motor - the ICE is used purely to supply electricity to the motor/charge the batteries (as in a locomotive).

Chevy did finally say that the motor can be used at times to directly power the wheels so while the electric motor does most of the work, it's not really an electric car. More of a different kind of hybrid. Still, an interesting approach to it though.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/20/2011-chevrolet-volt-first-drive-review/

 

[mattjs33]

Also, what's w/ the GM hating? My family have run GM cars for decades and I don't find they are any more prone to problems than any other manufacturer. Just take care of them and they'll run.

That's just how it is around here. Peppered all throughout the threads on this forum are random, unwarranted, uninformed jabs at GM. Come to their defense and you'll get moved Off Topic. But the jabs stay.

Our delivery fleet of Chevrolet S10 pickups includes six units over 300,000 miles, and two over 400,000 miles, with the current mileage champ at 482,000 miles and counting. So I think that's fairly high quality construction. And I too believe the Volt has a place.

But since we are now Off Topic, I'll ask it again; Why aren't Ford, Honda, Nissan and Toyota criticized as harshly as GM was for killing the EV1, for having killed the electric Ranger, EV Plus, Altra EV and Rav4 EV, respectively?

 

[qwk]

That's just how it is around here. Peppered all throughout the threads on this forum are random, unwarranted, uninformed jabs at GM. Come to their defense and you'll get moved Off Topic. But the jabs stay.

Our delivery fleet of Chevrolet S10 pickups includes six units over 300,000 miles, and two over 400,000 miles, with the current mileage champ at 482,000 miles and counting. So I think that's fairly high quality construction. And I too believe the Volt has a place.

But since we are now Off Topic, I'll ask it again; Why aren't Ford, Honda, Nissan and Toyota criticized as harshly as GM was for killing the EV1, for having killed the electric Ranger, EV Plus, Altra EV and Rav4 EV, respectively?

Fact: Certain era Gm vehicles are one of the worst for build quality. Even Gm admitted this.

Having worked on vehicles for a living when I was younger, I'm very familiar with pretty much all makes of vehicles. Yes, a GM vehicle can go 300k miles, BUT you will definately have quite a few repairs done in that amount of time which goes into the overall cost of owning the vehicle.

Take for example GM window motors. THey have been having this problem since the mid 80's. Instead of fixing it, GM chose to use the same failing design until today. Yes, I said today. Makes them $$, but alianates some customers. Do you know how annoying it is for windows to roll down but not back up? I can go on and on, but I won't since it most likely will fall on deaf ears.


As far as your other question, I'll say it again. GM, which at the time was the worlds bigest automaker, CRUSHED ev's, which was an example to other automakers who were also reluctant to produce them. The CEO of GM even denied crushing the cars. The only reason we know this is; the people who loved these cars rented a helicopter and flew over GM's proving grounds taking video.

Now, considering the above, to me it's not all that smart to support an automaker that suppresses innovation.

 

[Doug_G]

The volt's ICE engine directly drives the wheels. It's a clever design, but it really is a hybrid. Calling it a range extended EV is marketing-speak, not engineering reality.

 

[mattjs33]

Fact: Certain era Gm vehicles are one of the worst for build quality. Even Gm admitted this.

Having worked on vehicles for a living when I was younger, I'm very familiar with pretty much all makes of vehicles. Yes, a GM vehicle can go 300k miles, BUT you will definately have quite a few repairs done in that amount of time which goes into the overall cost of owning the vehicle.

Take for example GM window motors. THey have been having this problem since the mid 80's. Instead of fixing it, GM chose to use the same failing design until today. Yes, I said today. Makes them $$, but alianates some customers. Do you know how annoying it is for windows to roll down but not back up? I can go on and on, but I won't since it most likely will fall on deaf ears.


As far as your other question, I'll say it again. GM, which at the time was the worlds bigest automaker, CRUSHED ev's, which was an example to other automakers who were also reluctant to produce them. The CEO of GM even denied crushing the cars. The only reason we know this is; the people who loved these cars rented a helicopter and flew over GM's proving grounds taking video.

Now, considering the above, to me it's not all that smart to support an automaker that suppresses innovation.

So what was the fate of the returned EV Pluses and Nissan Altras? Because I really don't know. But I know none are around anymore. So I assume they were also crushed. Why weren't any tears shed for these cars? Why weren't Honda and Nissan also attacked in a movie? A number of electric Rangers and Rav4 EV's made it out alive, to be sure, but those programs were also cancelled. Yet no one has been calling out Ford or Toyota.

When GM took the EV1s back, what did everyone think they were going to do with them? Put them all in museums? Either way, you can't own one anymore. So they lied about crushing them, I see your point. But they belonged to GM; they could do whatever they wanted with them. Presumably Nissan owns a pile of crushed Altras.

I sell just as many window motors for other brands of cars that I do for GMs. And the part numbers have changed several times since the 80's. Maybe the design still sucks, but it's not for lack of trying. So I wouldn't say they are supressing innovation; maybe they're just bad at designing window motors.

I don't ask that you or anybody else like GM. I just think that for some reason they bear an unwarranted amount of the criticism that can be fairly applied to others. So GM's build quality has been spotty at times. So have a lot of people's. Ford can't make an oil pan that lasts, Chrysler can't make an automatic transmission that works, Mitsubishi for a time couldn't build engines at all, BMW electrical systems will randomly fail, Tesla still can't figure out how to keep headlights from fogging up. Ask any mechanic you want, something sucks on every car. It's all someone's best guess; some things work, some don't. You learn and try again. We are imperfect, thus the stuff we build is imperfect.

 

[mattjs33]

The volt's ICE engine directly drives the wheels. It's a clever design, but it really is a hybrid. Calling it a range extended EV is marketing-speak, not engineering reality.

Yes, but rarely, under very specific conditions. What they call it is irrelevant to whether or not it is innovative.

 

[qwk]

So what was the fate of the returned EV Pluses and Nissan Altras? Because I really don't know. But I know none are around anymore. So I assume they were also crushed. Why weren't any tears shed for these cars? Why weren't Honda and Nissan also attacked in a movie? A number of electric Rangers and Rav4 EV's made it out alive, to be sure, but those programs were also cancelled. Yet no one has been calling out Ford or Toyota.

When GM took the EV1s back, what did everyone think they were going to do with them? Put them all in museums? Either way, you can't own one anymore. So they lied about crushing them, I see your point. But they belonged to GM; they could do whatever they wanted with them. Presumably Nissan owns a pile of crushed Altras.

I sell just as many window motors for other brands of cars that I do for GMs. And the part numbers have changed several times since the 80's. Maybe the design still sucks, but it's not for lack of trying. So I wouldn't say they are supressing innovation; maybe they're just bad at designing window motors.

I don't ask that you or anybody else like GM. I just think that for some reason they bear an unwarranted amount of the criticism that can be fairly applied to others. So GM's build quality has been spotty at times. So have a lot of people's. Ford can't make an oil pan that lasts, Chrysler can't make an automatic transmission that works, Mitsubishi for a time couldn't build engines at all, BMW electrical systems will randomly fail, Tesla still can't figure out how to keep headlights from fogging up. Ask any mechanic you want, something sucks on every car. It's all someone's best guess; some things work, some don't. You learn and try again. We are imperfect, thus the stuff we build is imperfect.

EV pluses and Altras were all crushed.

They also called out other manufacturers in the movie, not just GM. GM was the main one though.

I wasn't talking about window motors problems as suppressing innovation. Killing the EV1 was. That was just one of many examples of $hitty GM cars. Yes, Ford and Chrysler have similar problems as GM.Generally japanese cars are far superior in quality and have MUCH lower operating costs.

Yes the EV1 was GM's car which they had a right to do with what they wanted, BUT when a company refuses to sell a car that a check was written for, crushes them for pennies on the dollar, and then takes a TAXPAYER BAILOUT(which will never be paid back in full BTW), then there is a problem.

You can stick up for GM(the problem), or you can support a company that is the solution(Tesla)!

 

[qwk]

Yes, but rarely, under very specific conditions. What they call it is irrelevant to whether or not it is innovative.

Taking somebody elses idea, changing a few things, and calling it your own breakthrough is definately not innovative. The Volt achieves close to the same thing a plug in Prius does. How is that moving forward?

 

[mattjs33]

Well, I guess in the fact that GM didn't have a "Prius clone" before, and now they do, that to me is moving forward.

I know some will never get over the taxpayer bailout of GM, and that is understandable. That GM intends to pay all that money back is often overlooked (And yes, I know there's no guarantee that they will). But there were some really good reasons for helping GM, whether you choose to believe it or not. We taxpayers have paid, and will continue to pay, for much dumber things than that.

 

[qwk]

Well, I guess in the fact that GM didn't have a "Prius clone" before, and now they do, that to me is moving forward.

Reluctantly moving forward at best.

It's only a matter of time before GM is a thing of the past, the bailout only temporarily slowed their demise.

 

[doug]

That's just how it is around here. Peppered all throughout the threads on this forum are random, unwarranted, uninformed jabs at GM. Come to their defense and you'll get moved Off Topic. But the jabs stay.

I think you're being a bit sensitive here. Off topic stuff gets moved because it's off topic, i.e. no longer on topic with the original thread. As a rule of thumb I start moving stuff after a tangent gets 3 or so posts long, as time allows. I try to leave bread crumbs to and from parent threads.

This thread is currently in the Off Topic forum because I'm not really sure what this thread is about. I just know it's no longer about the Ford Transit Connect. Btw, there's a lot of good stuff in the Off Topic Forum.

 

[mattjs33]

I think you're being a bit sensitive here. Off topic stuff gets moved because it's off topic, i.e. no longer on topic with the original thread. As a rule of thumb I start moving stuff after a tangent gets 3 or so posts long, as time allows. I try to leave bread crumbs to and from parent threads.

This thread is currently in the Off Topic forum because I'm not really sure what this thread is about. I just know it's no longer about the Ford Transit Connect. Btw, there's a lot of good stuff in the Off Topic Forum.

Yes, I know. I guess I was just frustrated.

Even though I like the current title to this thread (it amuses me), I think maybe I should stand down. Qwk, I don't think that you and I are going to see things the other's way, and that is fine. You don't like GM, and want them to go away. I do, and think they are poised for a dramatic turnaround. I don't think it's fair that people still lambaste GM in the way that they do about what happened with the EV1, when others did the same, but I realize now that that's just the way it's going to be. So we're not really getting anywhere.

For what it's worth, I've gone on record here several times as being in favor of Tesla. Although I do think it will be exceedingly more difficult for them to transistion from a boutique exotic constructer to a mass producer of mainstream cars than some people here do. But I do think that yes, there will be a Model S, in some form, at some point.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Didn't GM also control the IP on large format NiMH batteries, which they sold to an oil company? Lawsuits were then used to stop Toyota from continuing the use of such batteries in the Rav 4 EV. That might be another reason people don't like GM, sure they crushed their own cars, but then they locked up the technology that would have made many fine EVs available for cheaper than Li-Ion batteries.

 

[qwk]

Didn't GM also control the IP on large format NiMH batteries, which they sold to an oil company? Lawsuits were then used to stop Toyota from continuing the use of such batteries in the Rav 4 EV. That might be another reason people don't like GM, sure they crushed their own cars, but then they locked up the technology that would have made many fine EVs available for cheaper than Li-Ion batteries.

Yes. Sold the Ovonics patent to Texaco.

One of the reasons GM is still selling cars is that most sheeple are usually brand loyal. They say things like "my grandpa drove a chevy, my dad drove a chevy, by god I'm going to drive a chevy".

If Tesla were to go the hybrid route, I would not at all support the company.

These are SOME of the reasons I LOVE Teslas Tech and business plan.

-No more gouging dealerships, uninformed, pushy salesmen. This middle man needs to go the way of the dodo bird.

-Electric ONLY manufacturer. Don't have to worry about one model taking another's sales, IE Camaro/Corvette

-Skateboard design(actually another of GM's ideas that they didn't follow through with), Fewer part differences, thus cutting cost.

-All aluminum construction. Those of you in the rust belt know what I'm talking about here.

-Base car comes fully loaded. Most of the options are more cosmetic than anything.

-World leading technology in traction control. Compare a RWD car with the same power level as the Roadster in snow/ice. No comparison.

-Cars that are a blast to drive. No electric slugs here.

-Real world range. For an ONLY car, 100 miles does not cut it, especially when you take battery degredation into account.

 

[vfx]

So what was the fate of the returned EV Pluses and Nissan Altras?

Nissan Altras were fleet cars and only 200 made. The Hodas 350

EV pluses and Altras were all crushed.

They also called out other manufacturers in the movie, not just GM. GM was the main one though.

As simply a fan of the movie I would agree here. The titlle does not say GM, but of all the manufacturers in the film they got the most footge of GM and also had GM denying crushing and demand for the cars. They were not singled out except by avaible interview footage and crass denial of provable facts.

Also, of all the Electric cars of the day the EV1 was the only one that was a true ground up design. EVerything from it's best-drag co efficiency, electronic dgital readout on the dash to it's (later) NIMH battrys that were far ahead of offerings from Honda, Toyota and Ford with their simple conversions of existing models bringing nothing new stylistically or comparable to the EV1's 300 lb chassis.

It was clearly an honest and exceptional effort to make a true EV. Then they broke up with their owners. So there is a lover's scorn here that is unrationally emotional and arguably justified.

Toyota and Ford probably get a bit of a break here in the blame dept too because they let a small quaity of cars stay on the road when GM has allow zero working EV1's to remain even at museums. Then they sold the battery tech to an oil company so no one else could make one. Nasty move.

Nice unbiased writeup on the car that points out it's exceptionalness.

 

[qwk]

^^^^ The EV1 is truly a remarkable car. The only EV to date designed from the ground up as an EV. Model S will be the second.

 

[vfx]

^^^^ the ev1 is truly a remarkable car. The only ev to date designed from the ground up as an ev. Model s will be the second.

leaf?

 

[qwk]

leaf?

Marketing ploy?(Must have hired GM's consultant). Not a ground up design, although it has quite a bit of new redesign incorporated from the Versa it's based on.

 

[dsm363]

I think what people were most bothered by and why GM gets the most flack is that the EV1 (from what I've read and seen) was a good car and very innovative for the time. It was the start of something potentially great in that it could have jump started the EV movement. Instead GM (and the other automakers) actively fought to stop the program at the same time they were developing the EV1 and eventually succeeded. I believe this is what scared Toyota into developing the Prius and the rest is history (just a guess though).

I understand why GM loved making SUVs with their very high profit margin but can you imagine if GM had simply kept the EV1 around even just as a loan/testbed program? They would probably be on the EV3 or 4 by the mid 2000s when things started heading south and would have been able to develop something like the Leaf or even the Volt much faster as gas prices went up. They missed a big opportunity for short term profits and they ultimately paid for that (or we did) with the bailout. That is what people are so ticked about I think.

 

[mattjs33]

I think what people were most bothered by and why GM gets the most flack is that the EV1 (from what I've read and seen) was a good car and very innovative for the time. It was the start of something potentially great in that it could have jump started the EV movement.

I understand why GM loved making SUVs with their very high profit margin but can you imagine if GM had simply kept the EV1 around even just as a loan/test bed program? The would probably be on the EV3 or 4 by the mid 2000s when things started heading south and would have been able to develop something like the Leaf or even the Volt much faster as gas prices went up.

I agree.