Under-appreciated aspect of Tesla vs other cars

[MXWing]

Tesla uses OTA as a crutch, allowing them to ship cars that aren’t finished and are fulll of bugs only to be finished later. The ability to do OTA updates cuts both ways. I think with Model 3 they are taking a bit too much liberty with “ship now, fix later.”

No ability to use heated seats that are clearly advertised and paid for? Come on...

10,000 Model 3 sales with no one having even a test drive.

And a a huge waiting back log of people willing to do the same.

I don’t want to wait 2 years for a perfected car. If I wanted one that was fixed I’d go somewhere else.

OTA always wins in the end.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I gotta go with this guy. If you consider this feature to be great, but it also comes with the bad attached... yuck.
I'd rather have the 'good' without the bad.

I always read about owners who restart their computer, or restart several times, or pull over and restart... Is this
actually a common thing to deal with?

No. Need to restart very uncommon, and you don't need to pull over.

 

[LCR1]

Can't fix panel gaps, cracked roofs and alcantera headliners OTA

 

[nvx1977]

heated seats reportedly enabled on current OTA:

Tesla activates Model 3 heated rear seats in latest OTA update

 

[ℬête Noire]

Cars sold to date have included 8 years of OTA updates. So yes, I expect that in 2020, the 2012 S's will stop receiving updates, and so on. Tesla can't be expected to keep updating the cars indefinitely...impossible as hardware evolution renders the old stuff obsolete. I bet they're already rolling their eyes with challenges keeping 2012s updated at this point.

Pfft, I've ended up back working on my own code double that many years later with absolutely no end in sight for it getting retired, with a few customers for the product(s) it was used in having been there pretty much the whole way. 8 years isn't that much legacy in the Windows PC world, and once you get into embedded/accounting/larger systems they'll regularly run nearly all code decades old with just ongoing maintenance upkeep. If you get into government systems that stuff will sometimes have several decades of legacy.

On the other hand I suppose it's a bit longer than iPhones but not that much. Apple's still rolling out the newest iOS updates for iPhone 5s and iPad variants they started selling in Q3 2013, and have occasionally patched older iOS versions if there are really bad security issues. Obviously way longer than Android, most of those phones never get an update and at most a couple year's worth. Phones are a LOT faster moving/cycling hardware platform, though. The differences in the underlying hardware are pretty boggling.

 

[Krugerrand]

I'm saying that every other vehicle I've bought was delivered exactly as advertised, I've never had to pay for something with the promise that it would be updated at a later point. Ford did offer a power upgrade on their trucks a few years ago and yes it had to go into the dealer, but nothing was wrong with the truck and I had already got everything I was promised. Of course cars are better now than the 1970 Gremlin but when you bought the Gremlin you got the car you paid for. Saying that OTA is the best thing ever because Tesla might give us something that we didn't sign up for is wishful thinking at best. Again my other cars and trucks have all the features from the factory that I was told they would have, I don't buy vehicles based on empty promises like FSD or updates to something that should have worked from the factory, or hope that I'll get some unannounced performance upgrade that I didn't but the vehicle for. If you want to pay for it then fine, but I see no benefit in it. I was fine with the way the car was delivered to me, in fact AP has gotten worse with the last few updates.

There’s no CPU stock and buyers are waiting in line. Now’s a good time to sell the car you’re so disappointed in.

 

[hacer]

... There was nothing wrong with AP before and if I had the choice I wouldn't have updated because there was no need to update.

You can always decline an OTA update. You don't always have a choice at the service center. Why did you push the "update now" (or scheduled time) button if you didn't want it? Maybe you thought you did want it but didn't know what it would do exactly and took a risk?

 

[ℬête Noire]

You can always decline an OTA update. You don't always have a choice at the service center. Why did you push the "update now" (or scheduled time) button if you didn't want it? Maybe you thought you did want it but didn't know what it would do exactly and took a risk?

To be clear, you get the patched items list prior to accepting?

Has there been any reports from people that have declined accepting any OTA updates for several versions, over a number of years? At some point does Tesla refuse any service, even if none of the patches are related to why you're in? Say you're just doing an transmission oil change and check-up?

 

[LCR1]

There’s no CPU stock and buyers are waiting in line. Now’s a good time to sell the car you’re so disappointed in.

See my for sale thread

 

[LCR1]

You can always decline an OTA update. You don't always have a choice at the service center. Why did you push the "update now" (or scheduled time) button if you didn't want it? Maybe you thought you did want it but didn't know what it would do exactly and took a risk?

I never push the update button nor do I schedule a time. But without fail a week or so later my app notifies me it's been updated.

 

[MXWing]

I’m a kid in a candy store so I hit update immediately. I would think some updates could be mandatory.

Ones that involved safety or vulnerabilities and everything else could get upgraded right along with it.

Despite mandatory “updates” I will rather a car have them and then not have them.

My old Volt had terrible Bluetooth performance with my iPhone 8. Well I’m SOL there. No updates to improve compatibility with new devices from GM.

 

[McRat]

I’m a kid in a candy store so I hit update immediately. I would think some updates could be mandatory.

Ones that involved safety or vulnerabilities and everything else could get upgraded right along with it.

Despite mandatory “updates” I will rather a car have them and then not have them.

My old Volt had terrible Bluetooth performance with my iPhone 8. Well I’m SOL there. No updates to improve compatibility with new devices from GM.

First Bluetooth is a documented interface. 99% of non-Apple products support Bluetooth very well. Apple does not desire Bluetooth to exist since Apple does not own it. Hence even Apple to Apple Bluetooth is terrible. Try making an iPhone talk to a MacBook via Bluetooth.

Throw away your iPhone, MacBook, and Mac, and any of their software if you desire stability. It has nothing to do with the car, but Apple's poor team of software developers and toolkit support team.

New iPhone? New problems. New iPhone update? New problems.

But Apple sucks at far, far more than just Bluetooth. They can't figure out where to put their controls yet.

At least cars don't switch the brake, gas, steering wheel, headlight switches, wiper switches, back and forth every couple of months like an Apple Interface developer does for a living. I think the stuff is written in Pakistan by the low bidder.

 

[MIT_S60]

First Bluetooth is a documented interface. 99% of non-Apple products support Bluetooth very well. Apple does not desire Bluetooth to exist since Apple does not own it. Hence even Apple to Apple Bluetooth is terrible. Try making an iPhone talk to a MacBook via Bluetooth.

Throw away your iPhone, MacBook, and Mac, and any of their software if you desire stability. It has nothing to do with the car, but Apple's poor team of software developers and toolkit support team.

New iPhone? New problems. New iPhone update? New problems.

But Apple sucks at far, far more than just Bluetooth. They can't figure out where to put their controls yet.

At least cars don't switch the brake, gas, steering wheel, headlight switches, wiper switches, back and forth every couple of months like an Apple Interface developer does for a living. I think the stuff is written in Pakistan by the low bidder.

I'll chime in on the Apple bashing Bluetooth. It's mind boggling to me that I can't connect my Apple Watch with Cellular to my car via Bluetooth to answer phone calls.

 

[ℬête Noire]

Apple does not desire Bluetooth to exist since Apple does not own it. Hence even Apple to Apple Bluetooth is terrible. Try making an iPhone talk to a MacBook via Bluetooth.

So much ignorance it hurts. :/

Apple's AirPods are gold standard in wireless headphones....and of course Bluetooth based. Apple bought into Bluetooth very early, about 16 years ago. They integrated support into OSX even before Microsoft added it to Windows (before that your device had to ship it's own Windows drivers). Their standard keyboards and mice have been bluetooth for years now (although the keyboard retains the option to use it without BT while charging on the hardline via USB). So "Apple does not desire Bluetooth to exist" is mind bogging lunacy beyond what I'd even expect from you.

Inter-vender bluetooth can be dodgy at times. It is hardly an Apple limited phenomena, even with Teslas.

What there is an issue with generally on iPhones are 3rd applications that want/need to assume they continue to run in the background 24/7. Because iOS is heavily tuned to squeeze out everything it can from the hardware and battery, it tends to be fairly aggressive about swapping out inactive applications from RAM. The bypassing of that is treated as entirely internal, it's a highly guarded facet because letting a bad actor in jeopardizes the otherwise high stability of the platform for users. It's very clearly a trade-off but one that it's customers rely on. *shrug*

To bypass that aggressive putting to sleep algorithm and guarantee being able to operate background a company has to solicit Apple's generally opaque iOS management team. As far as I've been able to gather Tesla hasn't gotten approval for that yet. I don't know if they've even tried but Apple's process on these matters tends to be fairly lengthy and particular. On the flip side they tend to be rather PR aware so while Tesla's market isn't particularly big they seem like a prime territory for Apple to support due to Tesla's cachet (and as far as known Apple's interest in automobiles has been shelved). So barring individuals getting into inter-company pissing matches over who knows what (prior Apple Car stuff or employee recruiting?) it seems likely that Tesla will get a backdoor key at some time.

 

[ℬête Noire]

I'll chime in on the Apple bashing Bluetooth. It's mind boggling to me that I can't connect my Apple Watch with Cellular to my car via Bluetooth to answer phone calls.

Curious, can you even pair from the Tesla with it? I don't have one but I'd imagine that the Watch is aggressive about avoiding keeping open "unused" connections open, for battery considerations. That probably makes it behave different than the Tesla is expecting from a phone and/or the Watch may not want the type of connection the Tesla requests.

 

[daniel]

So getting better fuel efficiency wouldn't have been an improvement? Increased engine performance, not an improvement? Additional features wouldn't have been an improvement? Less polluting wouldn't have been an improvement?

It's like you're saying the improvements of ICEs over the years weren't in fact improvements. You should have informed all the OEMs that the 1970 Gremlin was perfect and they need not make anything else after that.

I think the point was that the items you mention would require hardware improvements. Other cars' software seems to be good from the start, at least the better automakers. My Prius had the software down pat from the beginning. Improvements in later model years were hardware.

OTOH, as cars become more and more like computers, OTA updates become ever-more important.

Using early buyers as beta testers has both good and bad to it. The bad is that, well, we are unpaid beta testers and our cars as delivered leave somethings to be desired. The good is that the cars get a lot more beta testing, and a lot of input from real customers. For all the complaints that we are beta testers, how much louder would the complaints be if the car were delayed another couple of years for beta testing?

The two legitimate complaints (IMO) would be that 1. Tesla is overly optimistic about timelines; and 2. We should have gotten the car at a discount for being beta testers.

 

[nvx1977]

I think the point was that the items you mention would require hardware improvements.

Actually the things he mentioned improved with firmware.

quick google search (there's more out there):

Elon Musk teases that Tesla software update will 'end range anxiety'
Software Update For Tesla Model S 75 and Model X 75 Boosts Performance By One Full Second | Gas 2
Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[daniel]

So getting better fuel efficiency wouldn't have been an improvement? Increased engine performance, not an improvement? Additional features wouldn't have been an improvement? Less polluting wouldn't have been an improvement?

It's like you're saying the improvements of ICEs over the years weren't in fact improvements. You should have informed all the OEMs that the 1970 Gremlin was perfect and they need not make anything else after that.

Actually the things he mentioned improved with firmware.

quick google search (there's more out there):

Elon Musk teases that Tesla software update will 'end range anxiety'
Software Update For Tesla Model S 75 and Model X 75 Boosts Performance By One Full Second | Gas 2
Elon Musk on Twitter

In those old ICE cars, those things would not have improved with software. They'd have required hardware. Their software was complete and fully-functional as delivered.

The Teslas are almost more computer than car, and benefit from OTA software updates. But it's a fair complaint that the software in our Model 3 cars today is sub-optimal. The software in my Prius was optimal for the hardware in the car. Improvements would have required more sophisticated hardware, and in 2004 that car was optimized for the available technology, and the software was a finished product.

I am a total Tesla Fanboy. I'm happy with my Model 3 and I am eagerly awaiting improvements in software. But if someone says to me, "Why doesn't the software do X today? Why do you have to wait for it to implement functions it could have had before you got it?" My only answer is that Tesla wanted to get the car out sooner, so it shipped an unfinished product, relying on OTA updates to complete the system.

By contrast, Apple updates my phone's software regularly, adding features I don't want and were never promised when I bought the phone. I am (I think rightly) disappointed when a feature does not work right and I need an update. I expect the phone to work from the start. In fact, the bluetooth was squirrelly in the iPhone SE when I got it, and I was upset about that. They fixed it in a later update, but I still regarded it as poor performance that it required an update to work properly.

I'm willing to accept an unfinished product from Tesla (and chose to get my Model 3 now knowing that there would be deficiencies in the software at first) because I love what Tesla is doing. But I recognize this as a shortcoming in Tesla's business model. And I will tell anyone that asks, so that they have the information to make their own decision whether they want to buy a car that is unfinished, knowing it will get better in time, or wait until everything works as promised.

OTA updates are great. But Tesla is using the promise of those updates to sell cars that do not yet perform up to their promise. Toyota does not do that. Honda does not do that. But then, Toyota and Honda do not make a 310-mile electric car that does zero to sixty in 5.1 seconds. It's all about trade-offs. Those trade-offs are worth it to me. But they need to be acknowledged.

 

[McRat]

So much ignorance it hurts. :/

Apple's AirPods are gold standard in wireless headphones....and of course Bluetooth based. Apple bought into Bluetooth very early, about 16 years ago. They integrated support into OSX even before Microsoft added it to Windows (before that your device had to ship it's own Windows drivers). Their standard keyboards and mice have been bluetooth for years now (although the keyboard retains the option to use it without BT while charging on the hardline via USB). So "Apple does not desire Bluetooth to exist" is mind bogging lunacy beyond what I'd even expect from you.

Inter-vender bluetooth can be dodgy at times. It is hardly an Apple limited phenomena, even with Teslas.

What there is an issue with generally on iPhones are 3rd applications that want/need to assume they continue to run in the background 24/7. Because iOS is heavily tuned to squeeze out everything it can from the hardware and battery, it tends to be fairly aggressive about swapping out inactive applications from RAM. The bypassing of that is treated as entirely internal, it's a highly guarded facet because letting a bad actor in jeopardizes the otherwise high stability of the platform for users. It's very clearly a trade-off but one that it's customers rely on. *shrug*

To bypass that aggressive putting to sleep algorithm and guarantee being able to operate background a company has to solicit Apple's generally opaque iOS management team. As far as I've been able to gather Tesla hasn't gotten approval for that yet. I don't know if they've even tried but Apple's process on these matters tends to be fairly lengthy and particular. On the flip side they tend to be rather PR aware so while Tesla's market isn't particularly big they seem like a prime territory for Apple to support due to Tesla's cachet (and as far as known Apple's interest in automobiles has been shelved). So barring individuals getting into inter-company pissing matches over who knows what (prior Apple Car stuff or employee recruiting?) it seems likely that Tesla will get a backdoor key at some time.

I was Bluetooth before BT was cool. Most my computers have it, all my cars/trucks do. Even my golfcart uses BT.

I've never owned an iPod so I can't tell if their BT is better than iPad/iPhone/MacBooks. You are probably right that it't better, because being worse might not be possible. All my PC/Bose/Auto/Stereo BT is superior to Apple's kludging of BT.

 

[nvx1977]

agreed that Tesla banked on completing firmware after production launch. very risky approach. Musk is still banking on the early adopter crowd putting up with it. The way I see it, this was probably a calculated decision made very shortly after Mar 31, 2016 when Musk realized the Model 3 was way more popular than he could have imagined. Pushing forward production by 2 years (500k cars by end of 2018 instead of 2020) was going to involve some really tough decisions. Firmware on the fly was likely one of them. As was skipping soft tooling. And of course there are consequences to those decisions. Still to be balanced, you have to weigh those consequences to waiting 4+ years for a Model 3.