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Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
496
298
Bay Area
@yves31 Yes, PG&E often gets the initial billing wrong, and @getakey has the best advice: call PG&E directly. If you want bill advice here, you would need to post suitably redacted bills for other to go through. Your energy production isn't of much help, though it does point out the power costs were only $2.47, which suggests that the power portion of your bill did in fact go down.

All the best,

BG
 

yves31

Member
Sep 5, 2021
16
8
tracy
@yves31 Yes, PG&E often gets the initial billing wrong, and @getakey has the best advice: call PG&E directly. If you want bill advice here, you would need to post suitably redacted bills for other to go through. Your energy production isn't of much help, though it does point out the power costs were only $2.47, which suggests that the power portion of your bill did in fact go down.

All the best,

BG
Thanks to everyone for helping. I'll call PG&E to fix the problem.

BGbreeder, $2.47 is average daily cost after PTO. It was $1.92 prior to PTO. There is an increase in daily cost, while the chart showing negative daily cost after PTO.

I read the bill carefully, and realized that no electricity generated by solar panel was counted. Daily energy balance (negative) was shown in the chart, but solar power credit was not counted in the bill. It calculates only kwh coming from PG&E.

Ampster, Rates are the same between the two bills, but kwh is higher in the current bill.

H2ofun and getakey, did you have the same issue: solar panel energy was not counted in the bill?
 
Last edited:

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
1,497
483
95762
Thanks to everyone for helping. I'll call PG&E to fix the problem.

BGbreeder, $2.47 is average daily cost after PTO. It was $1.92 prior to PTO. There is an increase in daily cost, while the chart showing negative daily cost after PTO.

I read the bill carefully, and realized that no electricity generated by solar panel was counted. Daily energy balance (negative) was shown in the chart, but solar power credit was not counted in the bill. It calculates only kwh coming from PG&E.

Ampster, Rates are the same between the two bills, but kwh is higher in the current bill.

H2ofun and getakey, did you have the same issue: solar panel energy was not counted in the bill?
I'll have to go back and review. I added PWs to existing solar and my NEM charge went up. I told them that was impossible as I was using Cost Saving mode. Took 2 months+ to convince them it was wrong
 
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miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,696
6,542
Los Altos, CA
@yves31 the way the online charting calculates and displays costs is not necessarily representative of your actual bill, especially after a change in rates or another major change like NEM PTO. It normally takes PG&E two or three billing cycles to calculate a post-PTO account correctly. Expect to see the first one or two bills after PTO completely reversed and recalculated.
 

yves31

Member
Sep 5, 2021
16
8
tracy
@yves31 the way the online charting calculates and displays costs is not necessarily representative of your actual bill, especially after a change in rates or another major change like NEM PTO. It normally takes PG&E two or three billing cycles to calculate a post-PTO account correctly. Expect to see the first one or two bills after PTO completely reversed and recalculated.
Thank you, miimura. I sent a message to PG&E and got reply two days later. Its response is exact what you said.
 

cciesingh

Member
Dec 17, 2015
57
1
San Francisco, ca
I am about to pull the plug on Solar from Tesla, I I have had Solar at my previous place which prob covered 65-70% of my usage.

I am a PGE / SVCE Customer in South Bay, I have moved to a larger 4000 SQ FT Single story home, current average electric monthly bill is approx $325, Current annual usage prior to pool is approx 165000 KWH. I am on EV2A plan, (I never charge at home as very close to Super charger).

I am adding a pool shortly and want to ensure I have enough power for my current consumption plus 20 - 30 % extra for pool and offset.

My current PGE bill electric delivery charges are approx triple my CCA charges ($275 v $90 )

My Tesla system design is for a 12.75 KW system with 1 PW, I am considering modifying to a 17KW system with 2 PW which I need to confirm over the next few days, I have a few questions regarding my choices and options based on my usage:

1. Should I change my PGE Plan from EV2a when moving to solar + pw?
2 is the 12.75KW system with 1 PW better suited for my needs or the 17KW system with 2 PW? (ADD net cost after credits is $125000)
3. For the additional investment for a 17KW system will I get a decent cash credit from CCA and PGE at True UP ?


Any help / tips will be greatly appreciated.
 
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wwu123

Member
Apr 11, 2017
436
366
Silicon Valley, CA
I am about to pull the plug on Solar from Tesla, I I have had Solar at my previous place which prob covered 65-70% of my usage.

I am a PGE / SVCE Customer in South Bay, I have moved to a larger 4000 SQ FT Single story home, current average electric monthly bill is approx $325, Current annual usage prior to pool is approx 165000 KWH. I am on EV2A plan, (I never charge at home as very close to Super charger).
You meant 16,500 kwh annual, right, so about a $0.25/kwh average rate? Not 165000, unless you're running a small data center or crypto farm (not unheard of in the South Bay) in the basement...
 

wwu123

Member
Apr 11, 2017
436
366
Silicon Valley, CA
3. For the additional investment for a 17KW system will I get a decent cash credit from CCA and PGE at True UP ?
So for the last question, it's about adding one more 4.25 "block" of panels to go from about 100% to being a net producer. I did a similar ROI calc to add one "block" to go from my current 50% solar to 100%, I think the marginal numbers will be about the same from just below to just above 100%: I did calcs for both E-TOU-C and EV2-A:
1. South-facing generates about 5500 kwh annual in morning and early afternoon before 4 pm, all off-peak.
2. All will be in the rate's baseline tier, if tiered, so about 0.25 for E-TOU-C, 0.21 for EV2-A.
3. Almost all will be exported, since it's already on top of the 12.75kw panel production, so incur about 0.03 in NBC's' for all of it, so net credit from SVCE of 0.22 for E-TOU-C, 0.18 for EV2-A.
4. Incremental cost $10K, 26% federal tax credit.

I got around 7.5 year payback period for E-TOU-C, 9.5 year payback period for EV2-A. Not horrible if this is your "forever" house and staying long-term. I have shading and therefore no production after 4pm, but if you have no shading in the late afternoon and can get a bit of production after 4pm at peak rates, it helps reduce those payback periods, esp on EV2-A.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,696
6,542
Los Altos, CA
Why the 3 powerwalls? I do not charge EV at home
If the grid is down, two Powerwalls can only absorb 10kW of power. With the 12kW solar system you would be OK, but the 17kW solar system is likely to either curtail or shut down altogether. If it is a Powerwall+ system, it may be able to gracefully curtail the solar. Otherwise, you could have a relatively low battery and mid-day solar production could overwhelm the batteries. You would have to either force some additional load from your house or turn off some of the solar to stabilize the system.

If you don't care about system backup performance, then it doesn't matter.
 

cciesingh

Member
Dec 17, 2015
57
1
San Francisco, ca
If the grid is down, two Powerwalls can only absorb 10kW of power. With the 12kW solar system you would be OK, but the 17kW solar system is likely to either curtail or shut down altogether. If it is a Powerwall+ system, it may be able to gracefully curtail the solar. Otherwise, you could have a relatively low battery and mid-day solar production could overwhelm the batteries. You would have to either force some additional load from your house or turn off some of the solar to stabilize the system.

If you don't care about system backup performance, then it doesn't matter.
Why do Tesla push the configuration this way e.g. 17KW with Two batteries? I am guessing people don't want to spend the money on batteries.
 

holeydonut

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,363
1,706
East Bay NorCal
Why do Tesla push the configuration this way e.g. 17KW with Two batteries? I am guessing people don't want to spend the money on batteries.


I believe if the grid goes down, then the system will curtail solar production to match what the house is consuming and what 1 Powerwall can take in.

It seems to me Tesla is pitching partial home backups for the most part (maybe it's a supply chain thing?), so we see a lot of 1 or 2 Powerwall systems being discussed on TMC lately.

I also think your average homeowner is not sophisticated enough to understand how their solar array may only be partially generating energy during an outage. They just want their backed up lights to run.

When my neighborhood lost power, I had 2 neighbors ask me how my house was still powered. They were actually upset that their solar system went completely offline when the PoCo went dark. I think they way these homeowners were sold on the solar value proposition, they thought they could still power home loads when the sun was up. I don't think your average homeowner will be like "oh man only 5 kW of my 17 kW system is working!"
 

cciesingh

Member
Dec 17, 2015
57
1
San Francisco, ca
If the grid is down, two Powerwalls can only absorb 10kW of power. With the 12kW solar system you would be OK, but the 17kW solar system is likely to either curtail or shut down altogether. If it is a Powerwall+ system, it may be able to gracefully curtail the solar. Otherwise, you could have a relatively low battery and mid-day solar production could overwhelm the batteries. You would have to either force some additional load from your house or turn off some of the solar to stabilize the system.

If you don't care about system backup performance, then it doesn't matter.
I am getting my install in December, not sure which version Powerwall they will provide. adding a third PW will likely add $7k cost. Seeing as I never charge my EV at home, which rate plan should I move to?

Considering my system is already sized for a 40% offset of my current usage, is it advisable to add a 3rd PW, if I do will i be able to power my whole home during peak times and sell excess energy for a decent return?
 

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
496
298
Bay Area
As almost everyone will tell you, go for the max amount of solar that you can.

We just added Powerwalls, and the only plan we were eligible for was EV2-A, unless we put in an extra meter.

I would encourage you to be mindful of the type of pump that you put in your pool and when you run it. Getting a modern pump motor is much more efficient, and will use much much less power.

All the best,

BG
 

cciesingh

Member
Dec 17, 2015
57
1
San Francisco, ca
As almost everyone will tell you, go for the max amount of solar that you can.

We just added Powerwalls, and the only plan we were eligible for was EV2-A, unless we put in an extra meter.

I would encourage you to be mindful of the type of pump that you put in your pool and when you run it. Getting a modern pump motor is much more efficient, and will use much much less power.

All the best,

BG
I have taken the advise on-board and gone with the 17k system the only query I had was regarding either going for 2 or 3 PW's, is it really worth plucking me plucking up the extra $ for this?
 

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
496
298
Bay Area
I have taken the advise on-board and gone with the 17k system the only query I had was regarding either going for 2 or 3 PW's, is it really worth plucking me plucking up the extra $ for this?
Whether it is worth it depends on how tolerant you are off being without power, and for how long you can tolerate it. I have a friend who loves pulling out the kerosene lights and reading. The fires last year convinced us that being able to run HEPA type air filtration was worth a lot. YMMV...
 
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