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Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP

holeydonut

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Jun 27, 2020
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East Bay NorCal
Has anyone else crafted a letter over this issue to their politicians? I want to write to my state assemblyman but feel that first my understanding isn't as deep as it should be on how the utilities are trying to screw solar customers, and second my word smithing abilities aren't that great.

It would be awesome if there was already a letter that summed up the key points that we could all just send out to our representatives.


Are you writing them about the screwage the CPUC is doling out around NEM3? Or just around confusing billing?
 
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Heretic

Member
Mar 9, 2021
47
10
SF Bay Area
Holy crap... I spent an hour today looking through my two PG&E bills (one with the blue header and the black and white one). It finally clicked for me that the black and white one only had the Distribution, Transmission, and other Crap under NEM2-PS and EV2A. The Generation NEM was reflected on the "normal" PG&E bill. It finally makes sense!

So I have to add the NEM balance from both bills to get the true NEM balance. WHYYYYYY PG&E whyyyyyyy is this so difficult to understand??!!

They do that because the harder it is to add it up the easier it is for them to charge ppl more :p
 
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holeydonut

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They do that because the harder it is to add it up the easier it is for them to charge ppl more :p


Lol, yeah I thought PG&E was intentionally making the B&W bill impossible to deconstruct and explain (even though it is like 13 pages) so they could bury stuff in there and screw with the NEM calc.

But after dropping everything into a spreadsheet I found their math actually adds up and is consistent with rates they published to the CPUC. So while their 13 page bill is absurd, it is possible to replicate their math in a logical way and arrive at their calculations.

The only thing that may have some monkey business is the metered kWh that passes through the PG&E meter. I have no way to validate the meter reading. I can tell that the Tesla app and the meter aren't aligned, but how could a homeowner claim an alleged revenue grade "smart meter" is good/bad compared to an alleged "revenue grade" Tesla Energy Gateway 2? The TEG2 insists I'm exporting about ~10% more kWh than what PG&E's meter registers.

Edit: Actually there is something that maybe CCA folks could research. PG&E has a calc for $0.04760 per kWh for a "CCA power Charge Indifference" on each kWh of generation minus consumption. This is a "2017 vintage" calc. This effectively makes the per kWh cost of energy go up compared to non-CCA folks. This means (for now under existing NEM rules) if you're a net generator you have a net benefit of $0.04760 per kWh. I don't know how long this thing persists and it's not terribly clear to me if the benefit on being a net generator will persist through the NEM calc. But for now it appears as a good-guy item for me since I'm a year-to-date net generator.

1624734809050.png
 
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BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
365
227
Bay Area
Lol, yeah I thought PG&E was intentionally making the B&W bill impossible to deconstruct and explain (even though it is like 13 pages) so they could bury stuff in there and screw with the NEM calc.

But after dropping everything into a spreadsheet I found their math actually adds up and is consistent with rates they published to the CPUC. So while their 13 page bill is absurd, it is possible to replicate their math in a logical way and arrive at their calculations.

The only thing that may have some monkey business is the metered kWh that passes through the PG&E meter. I have no way to validate the meter reading. I can tell that the Tesla app and the meter aren't aligned, but how could a homeowner claim an alleged revenue grade "smart meter" is good/bad compared to an alleged "revenue grade" Tesla Energy Gateway 2? The TEG2 insists I'm exporting about ~10% more kWh than what PG&E's meter registers.

Edit: Actually there is something that maybe CCA folks could research. PG&E has a calc for $0.04760 per kWh for a "CCA power Charge Indifference" on each kWh of generation minus consumption. This is a "2017 vintage" calc. This effectively makes the per kWh cost of energy go up compared to non-CCA folks. This means (for now under existing NEM rules) if you're a net generator you have a net benefit of $0.04760 per kWh. I don't know how long this thing persists and it's not terribly clear to me if the benefit on being a net generator will persist through the NEM calc. But for now it appears as a good-guy item for me since I'm a year-to-date net generator.

View attachment 678096

Well that would be an interesting lawsuit to watch about which "revenue grade" device was accurate.

Not to be a nit picker, but how do you know the Tesla device and / or the App was certified to be revenue grade? From the arm chair here, I can't see why Tesla's device(s) would even need to be "revenue grade", but I freely admit that I know nothing about the applicable regulatory and legal requirements.

All the best,

BG
 

holeydonut

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Jun 27, 2020
2,113
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East Bay NorCal
Well that would be an interesting lawsuit to watch about which "revenue grade" device was accurate.

Not to be a nit picker, but how do you know the Tesla device and / or the App was certified to be revenue grade? From the arm chair here, I can't see why Tesla's device(s) would even need to be "revenue grade", but I freely admit that I know nothing about the applicable regulatory and legal requirements.

All the best,

BG

Tesla lists both the TEG1 and TEG2 meters as "Revenue Accurate" or "Revenue Grade". Of course I'm assuming the data these meters collect is actually fed to the Tesla data aggregator for reporting on the app. For all I know the Tesla Gateway is "revenue accurate" when reporting to the utility, but then it's spitting other numbers out to my phone app to make the Solar + Powerall system look better lol.

For example, I have an Enphase Envoy that collects data from all my solar panels. The Enphase Enlighten system shows a daily kWh solar production value that is about 5% lower than what Tesla's app shows. This difference is consistent across every single day I've had my system online. I'm inclined to think Tesla's metering is wrong or miscalibrated.

The contemporaneous high-noon clipped kW production in the Tesla app reads 7.0kW. But Enphase always tops off at 6.7kW. The Enphase data seems to be "correct" since I have 23 micros at 1.21A peak and peak voltage is about 242v. So my kW at high noon should be 6.7kW.

 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,245
6,017
Merced, CA
Lol, yeah I thought PG&E was intentionally making the B&W bill impossible to deconstruct and explain (even though it is like 13 pages) so they could bury stuff in there and screw with the NEM calc.

But after dropping everything into a spreadsheet I found their math actually adds up and is consistent with rates they published to the CPUC. So while their 13 page bill is absurd, it is possible to replicate their math in a logical way and arrive at their calculations.

The only thing that may have some monkey business is the metered kWh that passes through the PG&E meter. I have no way to validate the meter reading. I can tell that the Tesla app and the meter aren't aligned, but how could a homeowner claim an alleged revenue grade "smart meter" is good/bad compared to an alleged "revenue grade" Tesla Energy Gateway 2? The TEG2 insists I'm exporting about ~10% more kWh than what PG&E's meter registers.

Edit: Actually there is something that maybe CCA folks could research. PG&E has a calc for $0.04760 per kWh for a "CCA power Charge Indifference" on each kWh of generation minus consumption. This is a "2017 vintage" calc. This effectively makes the per kWh cost of energy go up compared to non-CCA folks. This means (for now under existing NEM rules) if you're a net generator you have a net benefit of $0.04760 per kWh. I don't know how long this thing persists and it's not terribly clear to me if the benefit on being a net generator will persist through the NEM calc. But for now it appears as a good-guy item for me since I'm a year-to-date net generator.

View attachment 678096

It took a few months for me to properly decode the B&W bill as well. Once I got the last bit sorted out, my spreadsheet model which sucks the data in from Tesla's API all added.

The kwh used are still the same as Tesla. PG&E's meter is 2% higher in import yet export is spot on between Tesla and PG&Es meter.

I have a 2% global correction on grid usage and the model's are now accurate but only after decoding the how NBCs actually work. I had to remove the 4 components from the energy rate on export which we are not credited with. I mistakenly believed before that we are charged NBCs on top of the published rate. Not true. Everyone pays NBCs. You just can't get credit towards the NBC portion of your grid usage with exports.
 

Haggy

Member
Jun 19, 2014
190
31
Fremont
What don't you understand? I think there are enough of us here who have looked at it long enough that we know what's going on with the PG&E billing.
kSezMCM.png


It's not clear to me what the calc amt and report amt columns are supposed to represent, or what residual of total charge is or why it's separate from the Trueup. I initially thought that calc amt was just the calculated amount for each line item, but that column has a total, making the other two columns components of it. I'd appreciate help understanding this.
 

holeydonut

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Jun 27, 2020
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East Bay NorCal
What don't you understand? I think there are enough of us here who have looked at it long enough that we know what's going on with the PG&E billing.

I just reconciled my black and white bill with my regular PG&E bill. I'm on a CCA, so the generation NEM is on the regular bill while the other-NEM is on the black and white. There is actually a 10 kWh of energy variance. I don't know how often these bills have a delta, but there could often be a variance and people don't catch it because most people aren't idiots like me.

10 kWh is naturally very tiny. But if there can be a 10 kWh delta, then it stands to reason there could be even bigger issues for the hundreds of thousands of customers on NEM / TOU plans.

According to the black bill, I used 10 kWh of energy from PG&E during shoulder time on EV2A. But on the "blue header bill", that 10 kWh shoulder consumption is nowhere to be found. And of course, on the Tesla app, it says I never consumed energy from the PoCo during shoulder or peak time in the same timeframe.

I was able to reconcile the full math on the black and white bill. The 10 kWh is cross multiplied against the unbundled shoulder rate under EV2A. And I was able to tie off exactly with what they claimed was my net NEM credit change on the non-generation items. Getting rid of this 10 kWh is worth $2.97 since the blended shoulder rate excluding generation is $0.29 per kWh.

That 10 kWh from PG&E (or the CCA) is simply not shown on the blue header bill. So it shows a higher NEM generation credit. And the math is pretty straightforward and obviously does not include the 10 kWh.

Imagine if this delta was 100 kWh or 1,000 kWh? How would a rate payer get this money back from PG&E?
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,490
6,246
Los Altos, CA
If I were you, I would also download the Green Button data and see if you can find it in there. If I were a betting man, I would bet that there are some "estimated" lines in the Green Button data. Funny how PG&E's "Estimates" are never in your favor...

If you download the CSV, I have a spreadsheet that will "bin" the interval data into TOU period totals for you.
 
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holeydonut

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Jun 27, 2020
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East Bay NorCal
If I were you, I would also download the Green Button data and see if you can find it in there. If I were a betting man, I would bet that there are some "estimated" lines in the Green Button data. Funny how PG&E's "Estimates" are never in your favor...

If you download the CSV, I have a spreadsheet that will "bin" the interval data into TOU period totals for you.


I downloaded the Greenbutton data; then manually assigned each time slot to off/shoulder/peak time.

The sum kWh of the CSV data for my billing period (June 11 to July 12 2021) is reported:
+31.32 off-peak net consumption
-133.49 shoulder net export
-181.82 peak net export

The kWh summary on the blue-header PG&E bill is:
+32 off-peak net consumption
-133 shoulder net export
-182 peak net export

The kWh summery from the black and white NEM2-PS PG&E bill which was cross-multiplied into the disaggregated transmission (and other fee stuff) cost is:
+32 off-peak net consumption
-123 shoulder net export
-182 peak net export


Wish me luck while I go get my $2.97 :)
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,490
6,246
Los Altos, CA
I have never seen the B&W bill deviate from the Blue bill. Are you sure that there is no disallowed generation credits under "Paired Storage Maximum Export Estimation"? The values in that table under "Exported to the Grid" and "Generation Eligible for Credit" should be equal. Although, now that I think about it, if it was deemed ineligible, they would deduct it from Peak, not Part-Peak.
One more thing - which quantities are shown in the table "TOU Energy History"?
 

holeydonut

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Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,113
1,495
East Bay NorCal
I have never seen the B&W bill deviate from the Blue bill. Are you sure that there is no disallowed generation credits under "Paired Storage Maximum Export Estimation"? The values in that table under "Exported to the Grid" and "Generation Eligible for Credit" should be equal. Although, now that I think about it, if it was deemed ineligible, they would deduct it from Peak, not Part-Peak.
One more thing - which quantities are shown in the table "TOU Energy History"?


I don't understand what would cause a dis-allowed credit... but I don't see it.

Yeah it says -123 in the "july billing month" row under the Summer Energy Part Peak (kWh) column. The culprit is that in the unbundled detail it says I had a +10 kWh part-peak consumption that was offset by -133 kWh of export. So the net is -123 kWh for part peak in the period. But in the greenbutton data it doesn't show any part-peak (what I was calling shoulder) period that had consumption coming from PG&E.

I mean we've been in an infinite drought with lots of sunlight. And I set my powerwalls to have like zero reserve. I've been pounding through 3pm to midnight without taking that precious (and expensive) energy from PG&E during that ridiculously long window of part-peak + peak.

I don't have an EV yet... but I don't know how "normals" (people with EV2A but no Powerwalls) survive PG&E's TOU shenanigan's.

My energy bill in this same period would have been like $475 if I averaged the hourly kWh household consumption data from Tesla and my Emporia Vue against PG&E's total TOU rates. But instead, I generated a total net credit of -$128. And people think payback on solar + Powerwalls is decades? I think it's more like 5 years with the way PG&E keeps jacking up rates.
 

Redhill_qik

Member
Aug 16, 2020
313
222
South SF Bay, California
I would open a case with the PG&E solar department and challenge the +10kWh on the basis that it is not in the Green Button data.
One thing to keep in mind is that the Green Button data is net for hourly increments, but the tariff rates are actually 5 minute increments. This definitely shows up in the NBC grid import numbers (mine have been off by 5-13 kWh/bill) as there is no offset, but for the net export/import the increment period difference is a wash which appears to be the discussion point here.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,490
6,246
Los Altos, CA
One thing to keep in mind is that the Green Button data is net for hourly increments, but the tariff rates are actually 5 minute increments. This definitely shows up in the NBC grid import numbers (mine have been off by 5-13 kWh/bill) as there is no offset, but for the net export/import the increment period difference is a wash which appears to be the discussion point here.
The B&W bill has the raw channel data accumulated by TOU period. These "channels" accumulate consumption and feed-in separately. It is possible that you can be charged NBCs based on this channel data for patterns like alternating consumption and feed-in within a reporting interval, even if the interval total is zero. However, I think @holeydonut has done the math on the B&W bill such that he would know if this was the issue or not. My understanding is that there is a discrepancy in the Net Usage figures.
 

getakey

Active Member
Jan 28, 2020
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450
95762
One thing to keep in mind is that the Green Button data is net for hourly increments, but the tariff rates are actually 5 minute increments. This definitely shows up in the NBC grid import numbers (mine have been off by 5-13 kWh/bill) as there is no offset, but for the net export/import the increment period difference is a wash which appears to be the discussion point here.
I thought only commercial was 5 minutes and residential was hourly
 
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Redhill_qik

Member
Aug 16, 2020
313
222
South SF Bay, California
I thought only commercial was 5 minutes and residential was hourly
The NEM2 tariff says
Customers on this tariff must pay the non-bypassable charges specified in D.16-01-044 and Resolution E-4792 in each metered interval for each kilowatt-hour of electricity they consume from the grid.

I can't find a copy of either of these two docs. The E-4792 shows up in google search, but it won't download for some reason. I did find some discussion about the D.16-01-044 that showed a tug-of-war on the meaning on "metered interval" with mentions of instantaneous measurement. The PG&E numbers show that it definitely isn't 60 minutes, so it is likely either 15 or 5 minutes.
 

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