Here is the rate comparisons (only available on PG&E site), but I do not believe they are correct. First of all, they have to assume some usage pattern which is not described. Second, I did not think PG&E customers pay the PCIA fee. Aren't the CCA customers the only ones paying the PCIA fee? Pioneer generation rates are supposed to be 7% below PG&E generation rates.
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Understanding PGE/SVCE electricity bills/TrueUP
- Thread starter SMAlset
- Start date
When I made the comment, I was under the impression that Pioneer's all-in rates including PCIA and FFS were higher than PG&E's total rates. However, that does not appear to be the case based on the PDF above.
@getakey all CCA customers pay PCIA and FFS. The PCIA varies by the year that the CCA was started.
Pioneer doesn't pay out surplus generation credits like some other CCAs do and only has a $.005/kWh addition to the net surplus compensation rate for those who produce more than they consume. In addition, Pioneer has an annual true-up similar to PG&E's that wipes out any accrued credits.
As a contrast, Peninsula Clean Energy pays $.01/kWh more in generation credits for net exports during each rate period (off-peak, shoulder, and peak) and pays out accrued generation credits in April if they're over $100, irrespective of whether you're a net exporter or not. If you have less than $100 in credits, they roll over.
For reference:
Pioneer Community Energy: Going Solar With Pioneer
Peninsula Clean Energy: Residential Solar Net Metering - Peninsula Clean Energy
One thing I learned this year is that PCIA and FFS fees are billed by PG&E, not the CCA, and NEM credits do not offset them. This means that with Pioneer, there is no opportunity to use accrued generation credits to offset those fees.
But the pdf shows PG&E customers paying the PCIA fee, not just the CCA customers. Thats part of the reason I'm thinking the rates are wrong
we went back and forth on that (in this thread?). If that is the case, then solar customers in a CCA would be at a big disadvantage
I'm still waiting for redhill and miimura to run a calculation to see if there's any way to get a PV+ESS system under NEM 3.0 to be more economical than just setting up that same system to be "non-exporting" (effectively with no NEM). Like what conditions would need to be true for someone to actually benefit from NEM 3.0?
Ya'll are the smartest PG&E rate-minds on TMC...
Ya'll are the smartest PG&E rate-minds on TMC...
Your analysis here is not correct.
On the surplus generation, if you are with PG&E you get Net Surplus Compensation (NSC) rate for the net extra kWh that you exported. If you are with Pioneer you get that same amount plus an extra $0.005/kWh so that is a benefit. Sure, this isn't as good as the original SVCE compensation at the TOU retail rates, nor as good as their current compensation of 2x the NSC, but it is better than PG&E. Maybe, there is a CCA out there that is still paying at retail, but likely not for long. In any case, this is a win for a Pioneer customer.
The PCIA and FFS are charge/credits are bi-directional. So for every kWh that you export it offsets these charges on the kWh that you imported. This is clearly shown on the PGE black bill for solar+ESS customers, I don't know how this appears on a just solar blue bill.
These comparison charts are always confusing as they try to present a simple number and the numbers aren't simple. First, the PCIA rate depends on the year that you leave PG&E and join a CCA, so any number that is shown is only accurate for a single year and that year isn't mentioned anywhere in the PDF. Second, the rates change from season to season and TOU period, yet this PDF only gives you a single number so it's bogus on multiple levels.
The transmission and distribution charges are the same for PG&E and CCA, so the only numbers that matter for a comparison between PG&E and your CCA is the PCIA for your year and the generation charge.
Pioneer - https://pioneercommunityenergy.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Pioneer-2022-Rates-Residential.pdf
PGE - Tariffs
I'm on E-TOU-C with a PCIA 2017 Vintage ($0.01985), so I'm going to use that which gives me this comparison, which shows that Pioneer will cost you more.
| Rate | PG&E | Pioneer | W/PCIA 2017 | Diff |
| Summer Peak | 0.17582 | 0.16209 | 0.18194 | 0.00612 |
| Summer Off Peak | 0.12238 | 0.11186 | 0.13171 | 0.00933 |
| Winter Peak | 0.12705 | 0.11625 | 0.13610 | 0.00905 |
| Winter Off-Peak | 0.11203 | 0.10213 | 0.12198 | 0.00995 |
Looking a EV2A also with PCIA 2017 Vintage ($0.01985) also shows that Pioneer will cost you more.
| Rate | PG&E | Pioner | W/PCIA | Diff |
| Summer Peak | 0.19333 | 0.17856 | 0.19841 | 0.00508 |
| Summer Part-Peak | 0.14862 | 0.13653 | 0.15638 | 0.00776 |
| Summer Off Peak | 0.10748 | 0.09786 | 0.11771 | 0.01023 |
| Winter Peak | 0.13646 | 0.12509 | 0.14494 | 0.00848 |
| Winter Part-Peak | 0.12397 | 0.11336 | 0.13321 | 0.00924 |
| Winter Off-Peak | 0.10049 | 0.09129 | 0.11114 | 0.01065 |
If you are a net generator then it doesn't matter as it is a wash and you will get slightly more for your exports, but for everyone else it is worse.
IMHO, Pioneer should close their doors and go home as they are not providing any benefit to their customers.
What are the parameters for such as scenario? How much imports, exports and when? What are the assumptions for NEM 3.0?
I really doubt that there would be any chance of this being beneficial, as in order to not export you would have to be on operating on ESS most of the time to avoid solar exporting to the grid. If you want to go down this rabbit hole it should be in its own thread.
thanks, so the PCIA charge under the column PG&E in those rate comparisons is wrong - correct?
FWIW, PCE (the CCA I'm in) is still paying retail and has not announced a policy change on that front yet. I was comparing on that basis. Without this cash-out I would think twice about staying with the CCA since I'm not a net exporter. The way the rates and fees are structured makes it hard to fully use the accrued NEM credits otherwise.
Lol jjrandorin will want you to respond about NEM in that megathread... but...
I think that's the point; knowing what has come out about the NEM 3.0 PD so far, can you actually paint a story that says participation in NEM 3.0 makes sense (instead of just a non-exporting solar+ESS system).
NEM 3.0 PD:
$8/month per kW (AC) NBC
Energy exported credit at the ACC rate instead of retail (less the NEM 2.0 NBC)
Energy imported cost at today's TOU retail rates (ignore the GRC PG&E submitted)
vs No-NEM (non-exporting):
ZERO NBC since o NEM
Energy exported credit is zero (assume PCS can make solar non-exporting)
Energy imported cost at today's TOU retail rates (ignore the GRC PG&E submitted)
I cannot fathom how the CPUC would think that the NEM 3.0 PD was better than no NEM at all.
If you extend this into trying to make a business case for future-solar... for the "I" in "ROI"...
Assume the costs you're familiar with around solar and ESS pricing. Or use the CPUC's table.
I was circling back around to try to figure out how the numbers in the comparison where created and I discovered that the latest tariff documents I was using were updated as of 6/1/2022. The shocking thing was that the generation rates went down from the 3/1/2022 rates! Which made me take a look at rest of the unbundled components and I found three new line items
- Recovery Bond Charge $0.00548
- Recovery Bond Credit ($0.00548)
- Bundled Power Charge Indifference Adjustment $0.02572
The Pioneer comparison rate comparison document says that the rates are valid for 3/1/2022 when the PCIA wasn't broken out. The listed PG&E PCIA rate of $0.02653 doesn't match the effective rate for 2022 Vintage of $0.02554 nor does the list Pioneer PCIA rate of $0.02064 match any vintage rate as of 3/1/2022 nor the previous for 1/1/2022 nor the the latest for 6/1/2022. My best guess here is that these are blended numbers as well and that the person that created this document new that the PCIA was being unbundled from the PG&E generation rates and used non-official numbers when they created this document.
All of these changes my earlier analysis and the table now looks like this for E-TOU-C effective 6/1/2022 with a 2017 Vintage of $0.01985
| Rate | PG&E | PG&E w/PCIA | Pioneer | Pioneer w/PCIA | Diff |
| Summer Peak | 0.17582 | 0.20154 | 0.16209 | 0.18194 | -0.01960 |
| Summer Off Peak | 0.12238 | 0.14810 | 0.11186 | 0.13171 | -0.01639 |
| Winter Peak | 0.12705 | 0.15277 | 0.11625 | 0.13610 | -0.01667 |
| Winter Off-Peak | 0.11203 | 0.13775 | 0.10213 | 0.12198 | -0.01577 |
If you were joining Pioneer as a new customer, as @getakey was, then the PCIA would be 2022 Vintage of $0.02572 and the chart looks like this.
| Rate | PG&E | PG&E w/PCIA | Pioneer | Pioneer w/PCIA | Diff |
| Summer Peak | 0.17582 | 0.20154 | 0.16209 | 0.18781 | -0.01373 |
| Summer Off Peak | 0.12238 | 0.14810 | 0.11186 | 0.13758 | -0.01052 |
| Winter Peak | 0.12705 | 0.15277 | 0.11625 | 0.14197 | -0.01080 |
| Winter Off-Peak | 0.11203 | 0.13775 | 0.10213 | 0.12785 | -0.00990 |
So, the Pioneer rates are actually lower and you get an extra $0.005/kWh if you are a net generator, so it does make sense to move to Pioneer over PG&E and I retract my earlier statement that Pioneer should close up shop and go home.
Also, the group at PG&E that produces these "joint rate comparisons" should all be fired.
I have a hard time believing that you are a net importer with positive PG&E NEM charges for delivery and somehow have a net positive on the PCE CCA NEM charges for generation. Care to share your annual NEM charges/credits and import/export kWh numbers?
why do you add PCIA to the PG&E rates? If you are a PG&E customer, why do you pay PCIA?
As I explained in my post, as of 6/1/2022 the effective PCIA rate for PG&E customers was unbundled from the PG&E generation rate on the tariff schedules. The footnote says the following:
So basically for transparency this extra amount that is being paid by PG&E customers is now broken out in the detailed tariff information, but on the PG&E blue bill a customer would see a single generation rate that is the sum of the TOU period plus this PCIA line item. This is similar to the other individual tariff components are bundled into transmission and distribution numbers.
For comparison purposes on the PG&E vs CCA Joint Rate Comparison documents I guess it makes sense to show both of these now that it is unbundled, but the number would be identical for anyone switching as both would have be the latest Vintage year. For people that switched in the past the PCIA rate might be higher or lower, although as of the latest values every Vintage year from 2009-2020 is lower than the current 2021-2022 rates of $0.02572.
I found more info on this and apparently the CPUC allowed PG&E to issue some Wildfire Recovery Bonds with the "promise" that PG&E shareholders would pay for them. Hence the charge and the credit. More than likely at some point in the future, the shareholders will default and customers will be on the hook for paying these off.
I also, found this interesting page that has some definitions for various items:
Understand Your Bill
Learn to read your energy statement and understand your PG&E bill. Find common questions about your PG&E bill.
www.pge.com
The "Recovery Bond Charge/Credit" has the following info:
this doesn't make sense to me. PCIA is paid by people who switch to a CCA because PG&E had to enter into generation contracts to cover their usage before they switched. Why would people who stay with PG&E pay this fee? Or are you saying that it is bundled in the PG&E generation rate?
Yes, the extra cost of the contracts that PG&E signed for generation security was bundled/hidden in the PG&E generation rate. As of 6/1/2022 this was unbundled and now explicit on the tariff rate schedules. If you are a normal PG&E customer, my understanding is that you will see a single number that is listed as the TOU generation rate that is the sum of the unbundled generation rate plus the unbundled current year PCIA rate.
