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Underwhelming cold weather performance

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Here in southern ontario it's starting to settle to below freezing temperatures now.

Any feedback on choosing one of these two charging scenarios?

I have a Tesla Home Charger. Model 3 LR. I usually get about 60km for every hour of charge at 40a).

Should i calculate and back time the start of my overnight charge based upon 40a (60km of charge an hour)
OR..
Should I dial down the charging amperage to try and charge at a lower rate but longer duration (to keep the battery warm as long as possible overnight?)

thanks
 
If you're wanting regen for energy savings....yeah, that's usually going to be a net waste. However, for those who are interested in maximizing the range they're able to drive as opposed to minimizing their total net electricity consumption, it's an advantage. Also if you're doing it so that the car's driving behavior is always roughly consistent--this makes driving safer--then a net energy loss isn't really relevant. Or, if you are starting your drive with a decent downgrade distance, pre-spending the electricity to warm up the battery enough to enable regen could actually be a net positive for total consumption. All these things are context and circumstance dependent.

I doubt that many folks are doing it in the context of range extension as it often comes up as part of their daily commute routine to target their charge completion for their morning commute. If safety (consistency) is that much of a concern just set regen on low. Personally I don't find it a safety issue at all. I don't depend on it to prevent me from colliding into something in front of me. It's complete muscle memory to use the brake pedal ;)

I do wonder sometimes that with regen set low that you might actually generate more energy back into the battery with the less "Peaky" behavior of "standard" regen when it's in this limited regen state.
 
How do you measure battery degradation on the volt/bolt? Is this rated range or guesstimated range?
Actual range driving, same route under similar conditions. Ie, commute to work tracked for 1 week in August then again a year later.

I was quite OCD for the first few years of EV ownership :oops:. I would track the outside temperature, date, energy consumption, the amount put back into the battery from the wall, km driven and min/max/avg battery voltage (through obd2). I did this for both of my volts. The energy used reported by the car is an estimate, but to a full charge I would get the same range when conditions were similar.
 
It would be nice if the wh/mi was split into propulsion and heat wouldn't it.
You can generally figure it out though.

Just turn heat OFF for a few minutes and watch your wh/mi or energy chart.
In your wifes short commute to the train it's probably using 100 wh/mi or more.

It was in in the was about 28F today and low teens last night. Nice and sunny, so for grins I left heat off today while I ran a few errands.
It pretty much hit EPA spec 250 wh/mi. That was with pretty much no regeneration driving around town.
My wife's average is around 400 - 450 wh/km on her workday commute :eek:. When I driver her car on weekends it's about the same as the model 3 AWD (so model 3 rwd is slightly more efficient than the bolt).
 
Sounds like you are charging 100 percent! Never charge to 100 percent unless you are going
Immediately on a long trip away from Superchargers. Charging to 100 percent decreases the life of the battery if used all the time! Surprised Tesla didn’t tell you that. Charge to 90 percent everyday and you will have plenty of regen. And yes, charge everyday, try not to leave it unplugged at night.
Not charging to 100%, I'm aware of what happens when going that high and this is different. It's when the car cold soaks. At 0c I would get about half of the Regen bar being dots, now that it's colder Ive had 2 days where the Regen bar is full dots and there is no Regen at all. Not reduced, zero Regen.
 
Overall, the Model 3 is still more efficient than other EV's. And Tesla doesn't "disable" regen unless the battery pack becomes extremely cold or the battery is already charged 100%. In cold weather, it's normal to have somewhat reduced regen but typically there is still enough for normal driving without using the friction brakes except for a light touch when you need to come to a complete stop. So I don't see reduced regen in cold weather as being the big deal that a few people try to make it out to be.
It's not reduced Regen that I was referring to. It was completely gone for about the first 15 min of my drive. My original point was a cold soak for 8 hours at -5c is hardly extreme enough to make the battery that cold. At least from what I have been used to. I would expect some performance reduction if it were say -20c outside, but I was just surprised to lose Regen at -5c.

I mentioned this in other threads, but we only plug the bolt in once a week or so, and often my wife doesn't like to pull it into the garage so it sits in the driveway for days or in the go train lot while she is at work. During this time there is no major change in Regen, and no phantom drain either.

My model 3 was plugged in and in the garage all weekend. The range dropped from 450km to 428km while plugged in over 1.5 days. Phantom drain and reduced Regen are my only complaints about the otherwise amazing model 3 :rolleyes:
 
Here in southern ontario it's starting to settle to below freezing temperatures now.

Any feedback on choosing one of these two charging scenarios?

I have a Tesla Home Charger. Model 3 LR. I usually get about 60km for every hour of charge at 40a).

Should i calculate and back time the start of my overnight charge based upon 40a (60km of charge an hour)
OR..
Should I dial down the charging amperage to try and charge at a lower rate but longer duration (to keep the battery warm as long as possible overnight?)

I would charge when the battery is already warm when you get home at about 36A until it reaches your target charge.

This has the advantage of extending your battery life (since the battery is already warm), saving energy (because your battery is already warm and doesn't need to be heated). If you wait until the wee morning hours the battery will have already cooled off and will need extra energy to charge and will be charging at a temperature/charge rate that is near the threshold that Tesla decided would shorten the battery life too much. You will be in the "safe" zone but on the margin of it which can't be as good for the battery as charging when it is warmer from your commute home.

It also has the added advantage of having your car charged up and ready for unexpected emergency trips out of town for more hours (compared to charging at the last minute).

If you have time metered electricity, just charge whenever it's cheapest.
 
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Not charging to 100%, I'm aware of what happens when going that high and this is different. It's when the car cold soaks. At 0c I would get about half of the Regen bar being dots, now that it's colder Ive had 2 days where the Regen bar is full dots and there is no Regen at all. Not reduced, zero Regen.

Yeah, it has to be pretty cold to lose regen entirely. Maybe if you live in the Great White North and don't have a garage that stays a reasonable temperature it could happen often enough to matter. I live at the 49th parallel and use my P3D to go skiing and it's simply not a problem. My motorcycles have taken over the garage so both our Model 3's park either in our open carport at home or in the weather at our ski cabin. Even after a day on the mountain at 26 degrees F I have enough regen to charge on the way down and not need to use my brakes. I use a lot of energy on the 21 mile drive from the ski cabin to the alpine but the return trip in the winter is about 80 Wh/mile. That's with the heater running hard and the heated seats on high or medium. So, yeah, regen is great, maybe not so much if your climate is so cold that your battery pack remains an ice cube.

The P3D's excellent snow/ice performance is welcome on the mountain road I drive. I just wish everyone had a Tesla so they wouldn't drive so frickin' slow! When no ones in my way it saves me a good amount of time and makes the drive a pleasure. In December I was delayed almost 10 minutes because there was an SUV that couldn't make it up one of the steeper hills after a hairpin. He was all the way sideways in the road spinning his wheels when I went by without issue. And it was an awesome deep powder day. So I didn't appreciate not being on one of the first chairs. I guess I need to leave earlier to allow for all the crappy cars that can't deal with the sloppy conditions through the transition zone. 1st world problems, I guess.
 
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“In Canada we are getting -10 everyday”? Not true.!
In Vancouver and Victoria it is about plus 10 C everyday.
Not everyone lives in cold climates in Canada you know! Lol!

Let's face it, when people say "Canada", they really mean "Ontario". More properly, they actually mean "Southern Ontario". Which in fact means, the Greater Toronto Area. That actually means "Toronto", which deciphered properly means "Toronto Pre-Amalgamation", which really means the CN Tower.

It is usually below 10 at the top of the CN tower, so therefore I think technically within the real meaning of "Canada", it is -10 everyday. ;)
 
My wife's average is around 400 - 450 wh/km on her workday commute :eek:. When I driver her car on weekends it's about the same as the model 3 AWD (so model 3 rwd is slightly more efficient than the bolt).
Damn that’s high. My X barely goes over 300 with the heaters all going and me speeding a bit on the highway. What is she doing? 130 with the temp at 30 or something?
 
I feel like Bjorn Nyland this morning, minus the selfie youtube video explaining everything I did

I decide to the a cold weather test

Trip 1: Use cabin heat at 19C, heated driver seat at 1. Outside temperature -10C and beautiful sun in Ottawa.
I did 21km, 238wh avg (mainly hwy)
Next I did another trip, 17km (mainly hwy) with climate control off
I got 144wh avg (mainly hwy)

Cabin still felt comfortable, credit the full sun, no fogging issues
The Energy App was actually showing me more range than the battery range estimate

So... pretty much all the cold weather range issues are caused by climate control (heater), if its nice outside, try turning it off, especially once car is warmed up
 
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Beautiful sun.... Exactly why you can't make rules like at -10C will make x amount of difference in range. As the sun gets higher day and night make a big difference. Lots of glass exposure in a Tesla. I seem to always need to shed my jacket when its sunny.
 
I feel like Bjorn Nyland this morning, minus the selfie youtube video explaining everything I did

I decide to the a cold weather test

Trip 1: Use cabin heat at 19C, heated driver seat at 1. Outside temperature -10C and beautiful sun in Ottawa.
I did 21km, 238wh avg (mainly hwy)
Next I did another trip, 17km (mainly hwy) with climate control off
I got 144wh avg (mainly hwy)

Cabin still felt comfortable, credit the full sun, no fogging issues
The Energy App was actually showing me more range than the battery range estimate

So... pretty much all the cold weather range issues are caused by climate control (heater), if its nice outside, try turning it off, especially once car is warmed up
Only thing the model 3 needs to make this even more possible is a heated steering wheel :(
 
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Damn that’s high. My X barely goes over 300 with the heaters all going and me speeding a bit on the highway. What is she doing? 130 with the temp at 30 or something?
Yup, as others have said short trips. We are about 5 km from the train station so the car heats up but almost all the energy went into cabin heating and not much into driving. On a longer trip cabin heating be ones less proportional because after the cabin is up to temp the heater only runs at 2-3 kW draw. But while heating it can pull up to 8-9kw. That's about 15% of the bolt battery per hour, so if she does 2 10 minute trips like this per day, every 3 days she is using 30% of the bolt battery just to heat it.

As another comparison point, she had a VW golf TDI before this (sold back as part of emissions scandal, which allowed us to buy the volt, so thanks VW :D). On the highways on long trips we would get as low as 4 l/100km. But on her commute (because deisels are terrible when cold), she was averaging 16 l/100km. That's part of the reason why we sold the car back to VW right away for the bolt. Her commute was wearing the VW down horribly since the worst thing you can do to a diesel is drive it short trips in the cold.
 
If you are driving on roads with lots of winter salt on them you may want to use your brakes regularly. Having reduced regen probably helps.
Big thread about that: Ouch! First huge repair bill.
Wow, that's crazy. Does make me think twice about the negative of using brakes. Hopefully with the model 3 they have selected better components. They advertised the bolt and volt at having better rotors and braking systems because of the reduced brake usage, so there are apparently solutions out there to mitigate this...
 
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Hopefully with the model 3 they have selected better components.

This is not a wide issue. Our 2013 Tesla S is driven here in Ontario, we've done most of our 130,000 km in winter (sports). The S brakes are outstanding. Excellent stopping distance and massive components, in the same league as a performance car I used to drive. I routinely "clear" the rotors via hard braking, pretty much because I am a more spirited driver than my wife, so the one or two times I get to drive the car during the week, be assured the rotor rust/dust is firmly ground off. ;-)