gilscales
Banned
I was under the impression that they will be forcing everyone to a TOU plan in the future, I did not know that one could be grandfathered in and keep the old plan
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Unexpectedly purchasing an M3 for delivery on Tuesday
- Thread starter OCR1
- Start date
gilscales
Banned
If it’s still listed as included then they owe you one, snap a screenshot of that info and send it to Tesla in an email from your account
notAnExpert
Member
My car, made in mid-Nov, was home delivered on 11/20. The J1772 adapter was in the mobile connector bag in the trunk. Did you check the center console also? My phone cables were in there. Perhaps they put it there?
jkcheng122
Member
It's not just an extra $500 when installation of the HPWC is much higher than installing a NEMA 14-50. Typically the labor alone is quoted around $1500.
I was quoted $675 labor to either install a NEMA 14-50 outlet or the wall connector. So for me the labor cost was the same regardless of which way I went.
The labor costs depend on whats involved, but in general, its going to require the same labor to install the wall connector vs the nema 14-50. The wall connector has a cost, and you (the electrician) might need to install thicker wire. Other than that, it should be very similar / the same, so if it was 1500 for the wall connector the nema 14-50 should have been similar in the same location. Your experience was different?
Not "typically" at all! They should be essentially the same. Perhaps your HPWC quote was for 100A service, requiring heavier gauge wire, panel modifications, etc?
Akikiki:
For you to charge at 80 amps (versus max 40), doesn't that require that your car be equipped with dual inverters, each handling 40 Amps? In 2015 when I ordered my P90D, that was an available upgrade option that you could choose when "building" the car, but I no longer see it as an option on the website.
Having a 100 Amp circuit installed won't by itself allow you to charge at over 40 Amps if you have a single AC to DC inverter IIRC.
As a side note, in my years of driving my car, even on extended trips, the single converter does just fine, and I'm glad I didn't spend extra money for the second inverter.
Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
Hi pdq,
I was replying to a conversation where the poster was giving the impression 1) poster didn't tell us if the car had single or dual 40 amp chargers, and 2) that the WC would charger faster than a UMC simply by switching equipment without clearly stating the circuit also had to be highter. It was an older S with the 40 amp charger, not dual chargers.
I was adding to a previous post where that poster (not the OP) wasn't considering dual chargers or high amp circuit. They must have simply thought WC charged faster always than a MC. On a S, the WC doesn't charge faster than the MC unless the car has higher amp charger or dual chargers and higher amp circuit. On an 3 though is different. I'm not going to get into that one in this post.
Your comments are a mix of apples and oranges. Your nomenclature is off some though. The nomenclature is important so we understand what part of the car they are talking about. Often people say "my Tesla or S's charger". Unless we can read the context they are using, my Tesla charger could mean the charger installed under the S's rear seat or the mobile connector or the wall connector. I annoy people by correcting their nomenclature usage. Yes, I do, I know I do.
For you to charge at 80 amps (versus max 40), doesn't that require that your car be equipped with dual inverters, each handling 40 Amps? - accurate - but dual chargers not inverters, the cars have a single AC-DC inverter.
Having a 100 Amp circuit installed won't by itself allow you to charge at over 40 Amps if you have a single AC to DC inverter IIRC.
Having a 100 Amp circuit installed won't by itself allow you to charge at over 40 Amps UNLESS you have dual 40 amp chargers (pre'15) or high amp/72 amp charger ('15 and newer).
Older cars before '15 had single 40 amp and/or a second 40 amp charger (2 chargers). Hence being able to charge at 80 amp. I suspect you already know a S with dual chargers can charger at 80 or 40. But only at 80 if the circuit is 100 amp AND using a WC/HPWC.
In 2015 when I ordered my P90D, that was an available upgrade option that you could choose when "building" the car, - correct. The upgrade option was a replacement/different charger not the addition of a second charger. Me too. When I ordered my Tesla in Dec '16, I could have selected the higher amp charger. I did not.
but I no longer see it as an option on the website. - correct. Today on the 100D, the higher amp charger is included without a upgrade fee. I've not paid attention so I don't remember if the 75D get the 48 or 72 or if the 72 is an off menu option
As a side note, in my years of driving my car, even on extended trips, the single converter does just fine, and I'm glad I didn't spend extra money for the second inverter. I understand. I agree with you. I've had three Model S. First with dual chargers. The second charger was never an advantage. Didn't have the HPWC/WC or the 100 amp circuit. And the car always charged before daylight anyway. Second Model S, one 40 amp charger. The car always charged before daylight. Third Model S, 48 amp charger on 50 amp circuit, charges at 40 and always charged before daylight. On your trips you didn't mention where you charged. IF you use a Supercharger, it does not matter what chargers you have single/dual 40's, 48 or 72, the Superchargers bypass the chargers and go to the battery. The Superchargers are DC-DC don't use the AC-DC inverters.
Someone is going to jump in and kick my butt over my wordsmithing. (Go ahead, I'm not going to counter this one.) This long a post, I am sure I made some errors. My point in all this is, its more complicated than simply the cord/cable we using running to the car now. And often when explaining people talk about A and B and don't remember that C can affect A and B.
Whew, need a fresh cup of coffee. Most of the time I like to post like the booters do on Parking Wars. Get in, boot (post) and get away before someone hits me.
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We have pretty much the opposite experience. We switched to SCE TOU-A because no one is home during the day (bulk of peak hours) so we get a lot of solar credit at >40c/kWh. Charge at night at ~4c/kWh. Rate arbitrage at its finest.
We have a small home (1400sf) and a small West-facing system (2.52kW), which is perfectly suited for TOU. Paid about $6000 after tax credit.
Our system only generates about 3800 kWh per year, covers about 60% of our annual usage (6400kWh). At the end of the day, our annual out-of-pocket is VERY close to $0 for around 2600kWh of net consumption.
For the months that we are net generators, we have to pay the $8-10 minimum charge, which cannot be offset with credits. But for the other months where we are net consumers, the minimum charge is actually waived!
That being said, we charge around 33% at home and the rest is free charging at work. If/when we start charging at home more and/or getting a second EV, things will change.
But my main point is that solar + TOU-A can be very effective, especially if no one is home during the day and A/C usage is minimal when rates are high. I usually recommend people install a system rated for 50-70% of their expected annual usage and switch to TOU-A in order to get the best return-on-investment. 100% or greater coverage is awesome for the environment, but seldom the most financially effective.
In your case, you already have an annual surplus of energy so it won't really matter, but if you get a second EV and start becoming a net consumer of energy, like you already mentioned, consider switching to TOU-A to stay at $0 annual bill. Just food for thought!
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Camera-Cruiser
Fully Charged
Somewhat off topic, but what SoCal utility only changes 4c/kWh??? I am on SCE TOU-B plan and pay 13c/kWh. I have not seen any lower on their website. Am I missing something?
Very good information! I definitely plan on keeping that in mind. We normally pay the 9-10 connection fee most months (but my solar is a solar city / tesla one that is leased, so I have a monthly bill to Tesla for it, but its a lot less (a LOT) than I was paying before I got it installed in 2015.
My system generated 12,845 kWh last year, and I had somewhere around $450 in credits (of which they only paid me $50 or so per the way it works). I need to see what it looks like when I have the EV charging. I planned for this EV future in 2015 when I sized the system the way I did. I am getting a wall connector installed, and will be setting it to charge only at night just to "get used to" that process in case I find myself moving into tier 2 power repeatedly.
With SCE TOU-A, the summer rates are 47c, 28c, and 12c/kWh for On Peak, Off Peak, and Super Off Peak, respectively. However, you get a 8c/kWh “baseline credit” for all consumption (or generation) under the baseline allocation (approx 330kWh in the winter and 500kWh in the summer for my region).
This makes the summer rates effectively 39c, 20c, and 4c/kWh, respectively, as long as you stay under your baseline allocation. Effectively a two-tier system, just structured very differently.
The credit works the same way with solar generation. Your account gets credited for the generation during the effective time period at 47/28/12c/kWh but then you get “charged” the baseline credit of 8c/kWh generates bring the true credit to 39/20/4c/kWh. Again, summer rates, but winter works the same way.
Charging an EV (~300kWh/month by itself) would easily put you outside the baseline allocation each month so this really only works with solar to help keep the net consumption under the limit. Additionally, the rate arbitrage I mentioned in my previous post means for every kWh my panels generate On Peak, I can put nearly 10x into my EV Super Off Peak!
Time-Of-Use Residential Rate Plans take a closer look at how TOU-A is structured. The same “recommendation” of less than or greater than 700kWh/month still applies, you just need to take into account solar generation and calculate the net consumption per month.
Camera-Cruiser
Fully Charged
Thank you!
You explained it better than SCE. Since I have solar, then it might make sense to switch to TOU-A, from B. We do work out of the house and hammer the AC in summer, but it might pencil out.
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gilscales
Banned
SCE states that it is beneficial to use B over A if you consume more than 700 kWh a month but not sure how your solar generation would figure in if you do go over 700 kWh after what your solar panels produce, based on the above explanation it seems you still have to be pretty low usage?
I spoke with Tesla customer service this week and they did confirm that Tesla no longer ships the J1772 adapter with the car. I pointed out that the web site states that the part is included with every new car purchase and I was expecting it to be in the mobile kit when I purchased the car. They went ahead and gave me the adapter. I’m guessing at some point they will update the web site to remove that statement. But for anyone taking delivery of an M3 moving forward be prepared to find it missing from the kit.
notAnExpert
Member
Glad you finally got it. Wonder if we should give too much credibility to the CS rep. Let's see.
It’s NET consumption. If “Total Consumption” minus “Solar Generation” is typically less than 700kWh, go with TOU-A. Can be a positive or negative number, but as long as it’s less than +700, you’re good to go. I’m typically over once or twice a year but not by much.
Funny thing is SCE.com already gives you Net Consumption so no math needed. They have no way of knowing how much your system generates. You have to look at your solar data to get Generation and add it to Net Consumption to get Total Consumption.
It takes quite a bit of pre-planning to do a proper system analysis and come up with the proper system size for maximum ROI. Not too big, not too small. I have a huge spreadsheet with hourly solar data (expected) my hourly energy usage for the year prior to installing solar. It compares 2-tier, TOU-A and TOU-B and it confirms my analyses.
Most solar installers will just com over and day you need to cover at least 100% of your expected usage, including EVs. If I were a salesman looking to make my life easier and sell more equipment, I would do that too. But it’s a shortcut that’s costs homeowners a lot of money. Leftover energy from excess solar generation are paid out pennies on the dollar. And if you have a PPA with Tesla/SolarCity, sorry but you are paying the full amount to them whether you need the electricity or not! Lease/finance/cash is way better than PPA.
I apologize to OP and all for the thread jack, was not my intention. Mods, please feel free to move all relevant posts to a new thread and I am happy to continue discussion there!
This is good info. When I dad took delivery of his 3MR two weeks ago, I never bothered to check to see if the adapter is there. Hope it’s not too late to call CS and make a fuss.
roblab
Active Member
This is why I learned to do my own wiring: My labor costs are WAY cheaper than hiring a "real electrician". And I've used the 14-50 outlet pretty much exclusively for ten years (RAV4EV, then Tesla) and never had a problem. The outlet was much cheaper than the wall connector and uses cheaper wire, too. I've wired houses, garages, warehouses, etc, etc. It has certainly saved me money throughout my life.
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