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Unfortunate fatality in Model 3

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Az_Rael, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    Arizona woman dies after car rear-ends fire truck

    Looks like none of the safety systems were able to reduce this impact. Happened at 8AM, but unknown if fog may have been a factor. They must have been traveling at highway speeds.

    Be careful out there!! When we were traveling in Denver over Christmas we watched a Model 3 driver surfing his phone in stop and go with no hands on the wheel for several minutes as his lane moved ahead and behind ours. Way too much trust in AP.
     
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  2. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums

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    Tesla is the only set of car forums I have been on, where people feel the need to report virtually every accident they are in. I havent figured out why this is yet. It feels to me sort of like people who live in a really nice neighborhood feeling the need to use a neighborhood app to report on "that suspicious guy walking down the street past my house a couple times", vs what happens in "regular" neighborhoods where people dont care about that stuff because "stuff happens".

    The warning to "be safe" is a good one, and I absolutely agree that autopilots main problem is that its "too good, but not perfect".. but reading the story you posted, there was no statement about autopilot being in use.
     
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  3. RayK

    RayK Active Member

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  4. boiler81

    boiler81 Member

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    I find it these reports, although tragic, to be a good reminder of the limitations of drivers and driver assist systems such as autopilot. We all need to remain vigilant while driving and remember their are all kinds of hazards that only the driver can identify and react accordingly.

    We know statistically that driving with Autopilot is safer, but these incidences still pose the question of why Autopilot, TACC, and/or collision avoidance systems can preclude these accidents. Both drivers and Tesla need to do better.
     
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  5. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    There are a lot of folks who are overly confident in the cars and seem to think they are bullet proof driving around in a Tesla. You see those posts here quite frequently (one fellow bragged how AP saved him on a long drive when he was having micro sleeps). Tesla encourages this with their “Safest car in the world” thing and talking about how they broke the machine at the NHTSA. They used to advertise “no fatalities” until they couldn’t do that anymore. Other brands forums don’t seem to have that core belief that their cars are the safest ever.

    I have also seen the sentiment that “Tesla MUST have programmed stopped fire trucks in by now” - that last accident was an AP1 car. They apparently haven’t. So I think it is useful to inform.

    When the Mountain View accident happened many many pages were spent arguing that there was NO WAY he was on Autopilot. Turns out he was. This accident may be the same. It is hard to believe a person not suffering a medical crisis would blow into the back of a stopped lights flashing fire truck at 8AM. So, my bet is AP was engaged when this occurred.
     
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  6. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    But yet it happens all the time:



    Was AP active? I don't know but I doubt it. Did EAB do anything? We don't know.
     
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  7. dmurphy

    dmurphy Woof.

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    Was it foggy?
    Maybe he spilled a hot coffee in his lap and got distracted?
    Was he fiddling with the radio?

    Thousand different scenarios can cause driver distraction/inattentiveness/missing details, none of which we know at this point. Anything else - AP or not - is speculative.
     
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  8. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums

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    I wonder if there are box truck forums somewhere, where someone is posting "another unfortunate accident with a box truck"...
     
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  9. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    I keep my “AP was on” bet open. I know it happens in regular cars too, but I am guessing most Tesla owners would be using AP on a freeway drive. I know I would have had AP on.

    AEB should have reduced the impact speed by 25mph if it operated per the manual. That would have made a 70mph crash into a 45mph crash. You could compare the front end damage to the NHTSA or IIHS images to get an estimate of the speed.


    We had these same discussions about all the previous events. I keep my bet open.
     
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  10. Not Sure

    Not Sure Member

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    Please don't be ghoulish.
     
  11. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums

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    All true, but on my daily commute, I see people on cellphones and not looking, people putting on makeup while driving 70 MPH down the freeway, people eating food that requires a utensil while driving (basically driving with forearms or elbows eating something in a bowl with a fork, and occasionally a spoon).

    None in any specific manufacturer car, all doing something stupid, none of it having anything to do with a specific brand of car, but having something to do with how stupid human beings can sometimes be.

    Point being, it happens to people in every make and model, but here on these boards there is a strange focus on it that simply is not seen in other car forums.
     
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  12. tvad

    tvad Member

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    Exactly. Much conjecture in this thread regarding efficacy of autopilot or reliance on the system, when there is no mention of it in the report.
     
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  13. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    It is because of Autopilot. If AP didn’t exist, we wouldn’t be having these discussions. It is like the Uber self driving car crash that hit a pedestrian. Many many pedestrians get hit every day by cars, even by Volvos and yet a self driving Uber Volvo hits a person and it is national news and the NHTSA investigates.

    So every crash of a modern Tesla asked the question: was AP on? The reporter even mentioned it in the piece, so they must have asked the first responders. They wouldn’t ask that question if it had been a box truck.

    The NHTSA did investigate the last fire truck crash. They wouldn’t have done that for any fire truck event. So it isn’t just this forum.
     
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  14. tvad

    tvad Member

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    #14 tvad, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
    Careful not to project one’s practice onto others and assume it’s most common.
     
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  15. jjrandorin

    jjrandorin Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums

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    And would they be asking that question if it was a BMW? They should.. my wifes BMW has almost all the same drivers assistance features that my tesla has, with the exception of changing lanes while on the advanced cruise control feature. Whether AP was on or not is immaterial to how much focus, both here, and in other places on "tesla crashes".
     
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  16. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    Same to you then. Only Tesla has the data about how often we use AP on freeways.

    All BMWs don’t come with the full driver assistance package as standard equipment like Teslas do today. I would assume that complexity precludes assuming any particular BMW in a crash has any driver assistance features at all. But, yes, they should.

    The various testing agencies are catching up and testing driver assistance packages, so that is a good thing.

    “Tesla crashes” are going to be a thing for as long as Tesla exists. It is a combination of the various short sellers, the outspoken CEO, the public’s fascination with “self driving” cars, etc.
     
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  17. ahkahn

    ahkahn Active Member

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    Don't forget about the endless supply of women doing their makeup... at 75mph in their rearview mirror.
     
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  18. hydro 481

    hydro 481 Active Member

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    It mainly has to do with AP and how Tesla has always emphasized how safe it is compared to a human driver. No other car company touts their assisted driving feature like Tesla does. Not even close. The name Autopilot itself strongly suggests the system is capable of driving on it’s own. What’s the first question that crosses most people’s mind when you hear about a Tesla vehicle involved in an accident? “Was Autopilot on?” I’ve had family and friends ask me about accidents they’ve heard about on the news and whether AP was the cause. It doesn’t help that those same owners involved in the accidents file lawsuits blaming AP for the cause of the accident.

    Another reason people are so fascinated with Tesla accidents, particularly fatal ones like the one mentioned here, is because of how Tesla advertises their car as being the safest ever created. When you make such a bold claim, you’re setting yourself up for extreme scrutiny.
     
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  19. C141medic

    C141medic Active Member

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    A very tragic and sad accident indeed.

    I’m trying to understand how accidents such as this occur especially with newer vehicles with so much tech. I’m not singling out Tesla’s but I wonder if there are other auto makers out there that have had similar accidents and why these type of accidents occur?
     
  20. outdoors

    outdoors Always roaming

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    Coming back from Florida yesterday I almost T-boned a car stuck in left lane of North I 95 near Jacksonville that had hit the barrier. It was rainy,nasty, and dark. AP saw it. I didn't. Even though my eyes were very attentive on a evening like that. Had I not I would have hit people and car just after the accident.

    For every instance of a fire truck there are countless daily saves from Tesla's. Just like in life most people don't talk about the almost. People tend to gravitate to what the clicks and pages generate. Which isn't the almost. Tesla has put out some pieces on people that walk away from what I would say are horrific in any other car. I have monteried just about every crash history from a Tesla that I can find. People do walk away in most crashes where in other cars would have been carted away in a stretcher. I read the police reports, and the fireman comments.

    For AP. If it saves me and my family just once a year from something stupid or something I missed. That's fine. It is a drivers aid, not a driver.

    Also strange is talking to people at superchargers about accidents. You saw the other Tesla drivers while on way to charger. You meet them at the supercharger. Then you commisterate on the accident. Not sure that exists in any other auto brand. Shout out to my fellow chargers at Savannah airport.
     
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