Unfortunate fatality in Model 3

[jjrandorin]

A very tragic and sad accident indeed.

I’m trying to understand how accidents such as this occur especially with newer vehicles with so much tech. I’m not singling out Tesla’s but I wonder if there are other auto makers out there that have had similar accidents and why these type of accidents occur?

I dont think more accidents occur in teslas (im not searching for statistics). What I DO think, which is something that OP alludes to, is that many tesla drivers have an inordinate amount of faith in the tech. It works perfectly like 90-95% of the time (to totally make up numbers). The problem with that, as I mentioned in passing earlier in this thread, is that its "too good, but not perfect". Its good enough to inspire too much confidence in it, but not "perfect".

I also think that these fatal accidents are somewhat rare, in the scheme of things, especially compared to total numbers of accidents. Because tesla is "different" (and elon is very "out there" sometimes), and many people / companies have a vested interest in seeing them fail for monetary reasons, there is a huge focus on tesla in relationship to other car makers.

I still find it somewhat strange that people on these forums scour the internet and seem to be intent on making sure that everyone sees every "tesla crash" though. Saying that, I find quite a few things about these tesla forums somewhat different from other car forums, and this is only one of those things.

 

[mal_tsla]

Tesla should observe flashing emergency vehicle lights and override the logic that ignores stationary vehicles, giving the driver the scary red beep flash to take action or even automatically braking

 

[focher]

If there’s going to be conjecture, let’s acknowledge that AP won’t engage in conditions it knows it can’t operate ... including heavy enough fog.

No car is magical. They all operate under the laws of physics. This is only “news” because Tesla gets clicks.

 

[acarney]

AP and the safety features aren’t really designed for high speed and stopped objects. I don’t blame the safety systems “failing” in this situation. I also don’t completely blame the driver. Stopped vehicles can be a drastically jarring situation and that reaction time trying to figure out why they’re stopped and what to do feels like forever.

I remember being in LA traffic going like 20 mph while adjacent lanes were at like 35 mph and a truck in front of me just merging out of my lane and suddenly the only thing in front of me was a completely stopped car. Even at 20 mph it was a big shock to me and took what felt like way longer than it should for my brain to say *STOP*.

If he was going at highway speeds and entered that lane (possibly because it looked empty and his lane was starting to slow down) and suddenly that was 50 to 100 feet in front of him I could totally see this happening.

 

[SlimJim]

If the radar can see 250yards in front, why didn't it slow down?
I can see 1/2 mile or longer ahead with my eyes. I slow down when I see something in my lane not moving as fast.

Would a lidar do better?

 

[timk225]

Accident referenced in OP's post not behind a paywall: One dead after car slams into fire truck on I-70

I hate paywalls, I never subscribe even for free.

They had to hit that truck pretty hard to knock the truck tire off the rim.

 

[MP3Mike]

If the radar can see 250yards in front, why didn't it slow down?
I can see 1/2 mile or longer ahead with my eyes. I slow down when I see something in my lane not moving as fast.

Would a lidar do better?

What if like one of the previous ones they were following another vehicle that swerved out of the way at the last second then exposing the fire truck?

 

[seattlite2004]

I hate paywalls, I never subscribe even for free.

They had to hit that truck pretty hard to knock the truck tire off the rim.

No paywall: One dead, one injured in rear-end collision with fire truck in Putnam County

 

[SlimJim]

What if like one of the previous ones they were following another vehicle that swerved out of the way at the last second then exposing the fire truck?

the radar senses below the cars in front. so in traffic, the car will brake even if the one immediately in front of your car doesn't slow down.

 

[Oldschool496]

Would a lidar do better?

Lidar-
"fools errand" Quoted by Elon Musk

If the car sensed non moving objects and braked for them all the time, the car would never move. Remember its still autopilot(an assistive system), your still driving the car even with the latest FSD downloads, Hands on the wheel, eyes forward.

No baking cookies while driving or conducting classes.

 

[Sherlo]

Don't forget about the endless supply of women doing their makeup... at 75mph in their rearview mirror.

Don’t forget about us “guys” that need a little concealer

 

[MP3Mike]

the radar senses below the cars in front. so in traffic, the car will brake even if the one immediately in front of your car doesn't slow down.

But the fire truck wasn't moving, so it wouldn't be slowing down.

 

[tvad]

Same to you then. Only Tesla has the data about how often we use AP on freeways.

LOL. Same to me...except I haven’t generalized my experience onto Tesla drivers as a group.

Data. Facts. Those are key. Agreed.

 

[sceptic]

"Az_Rael, post: 4343439, member: 42733"]I keep my “AP was on” bet open. I know it happens in regular cars too, but I am guessing most Tesla owners would be using AP on a freeway drive. I know I would have had AP on. "

And yet many of us have cars that DON'T even have AP - standard model 3!

 

[Az_Rael]

"Az_Rael, post: 4343439, member: 42733"]I keep my “AP was on” bet open. I know it happens in regular cars too, but I am guessing most Tesla owners would be using AP on a freeway drive. I know I would have had AP on. "

And yet many of us have cars that DON'T even have AP - standard model 3!

Which will be rare beasts in the future since you have to order those "off menu". In a few years people won't even remember that Teslas didn't all come with Autopilot in some form.

But all Teslas DO have AEB, so it is interesting that it appears to have not activated, or not activated in time in this case.

What if like one of the previous ones they were following another vehicle that swerved out of the way at the last second then exposing the fire truck?

That is possible, maybe we will find out more details.

On the prior event, though, the Tesla driver had 3-4 seconds of visibility of the fire truck after the lead vehicle cut out of the lane. That should have been plenty of time for him to see the truck and hit the brakes from 21mph. I wouldn't classify that as "last second" - that is how much space defensive drivers are supposed to leave on dry roads when following at highway speeds. He just wasn't paying attention. If you read the interview the NTSB did with him all he remembered that he had a bagel and a coffee and both went everywhere when he hit the truck. A witness noticed he was looking down and not at the road.

In that event the FCW went off only .5 seconds before the impact and the AEB did not engage at all even though it wasn't highway speeds. It appears this may have been a similar situation (AEB doesn't look like it activated, or it activated too late), except higher speeds.

https://ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB1907.pdf

 

[Az_Rael]

Initial police information:
Rear-Ending a Fire Truck Results in Fatality on I-70

Approximate Location: Google Maps

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

But yet it happens all the time:

Was AP active? I don't know but I doubt it. Did EAB do anything? We don't know.

What matters, of course, is the ratio of crashes into fire truck rears to the total number of Teslas on the road, and then comparing that ratio to the overall ratio for all vehicles.

My suspicion is that the rate is higher for Teslas than for vehicles as a whole, though the overall numbers may be too small to draw any meaningful conclusion (sort of like Concorde went from the safest to the least safe plane with one crash - though perhaps in that case that WAS meaningful).

Also, my guess is that AP was engaged. We’ll all know the answer in a few weeks I suppose.

Regardless, a young person lost their life, and that is tragic. Collision avoidance & mitigation systems that work reliably can’t come soon enough. A few more years, maybe.

 

[dskid]

The other thing is that the fire truck stopped at what appears to be an angle in the lane. So the impact seems to be in the corner of the truck which would have caused it to progress further into the car compared to if it was hit square.

And on that note, why at this point is there not some sort of collision mitigation system in place? Highway maintenance trucks here have a system that deploys off the back to absorb impacts because people, not just Tesla drivers using AP, crash into them. Obviously not exactly ideal for police cars and fire trucks, but if it’s happening often enough, could they not have freeway response vehicles specially suited for collision mitigation?

And thirdly, why can we not develop a standard that projects information from the emergency vehicle that these advanced driver-aid systems can understand? Hell, even some sort of radar reflector that fools the radar to see the stopped vehicle as moving and cause it to stop. Because let’s be honest, any radar based system will have the same issues here.

 

[aaron0k]

Assuming AP was enabled; Tesla needs to require Autopilot Safety Education (via App, Web or Center Console) BEFORE it can be activated... per driver profile. Period.

There will be fatalities on this journey... autonomous cars will eventually save exponentially more lives than lost. That said, Tesla's approach has been aggressive... it has to be accompanied with the proper amount of education on its current risks and severe limitations.

I'm very saddened by this loss.

 

[Oldschool496]

Autopilot Safety Education (via App, Web or Center Console) BEFORE it can be activated... per driver profile. Period.

AGREED, driving a MS myself, the first year 2016, I was sure the car would stop for anything in case I did not. Then the first fire truck incident, then I studied this issue hard.

1. AP is an assistive system your still driving this car 100% plus. Hold onto that wheel and eyes front.

2. If the car stopped for immovable objects, it would never move. There are non-moving/immovable objects everywhere. There would at best be lots of false braking events in one trip. Until you drive these cars with AP, you would never understand #2. Think hard about that bus, in the city, that stopped up ahead and your going 45mph. False braking event if AP was engaged. Thats a whole other problem enagaging AP other then limited access highways. Another highly misunderstood property of AP.

3. YES, you need some sort of course initially if your car is equipped with AP, because even the sales staff truly has no idea how it works either, along with a bevy items they are in the dark on. You can't learn as you go and hope for the best. Lives are at stake here.

YOUR mother, your child, your grandchild and all the others are at risk, not forgetting you and your passengers.

This creates other problems in the rental arena. What course will you take for renting?

SAFE TRAVELS