Unhappy with FSD sales and pricing

[rking0122]

FSD Capability is the option that Tesla sells and it is and has been defined since introduction October 2016 on their site at Autopilot scroll down to "Full Self-Driving Capability"

I get that. But it also says "future" at least a couple of times. So what FSD is defined as NOW, in terms of that which they offer NOW, is what Tesla says it is, and may be everchanging. They state it has the "hardware" to do it--and I suspect if later it is determined the hardware isn't good enough, yes, they'll be on the hook for upgrades.

I also get the frustration with it, to the point where I didn't bother to buy it this go round. IF they allowed me to transfer my FSD purchase from one car to the next, I might have bought it, even if there was a transfer fee or something. AND I'd probably been a Tesla customer for life. But in my mind, for now, it is kind of expensive vaporware for most (but not all) applications.

As a lawyer myself, I personally think they've creatively insulated themselves on this one. Clever and creative marketing like most things. They've been absolutely stellar at getting people to buy because of FOMO--and the incremental price increases.

I also think there are plenty of lawyers out there that if there were the real opportunity to profitably pursue this, it would have been done already many times before if it isn't already.

But what do I know...I just enjoy my MY.

 

[nbergma]

As an engineer with over 20 years in electronics, open it to me also...

As an example of who not to release it to, I met a couple at my local SC who had a 3 week old Model 3 that had a small dent in one quarter panel and three corners scrapped (like 8 in. areas of scrapped paint as if they had brushed a brick wall) and when I asked them about the issues they were not even aware of them...

Scary stuff. But yes, I see people doing really dumb things in vehicles all the time, including, unfortunately, Teslas.

 

[Sailking13]

Despite all the missed dates and unmet promises, I have remained cautiously optimistic that those of us who purchased FSD would eventually get something close to FSD with our current hardware.

This optimism was bolstered when the beta was released in October. However, given the almost total lack of communication from Tesla/Elon since the initial beta release, and the increasing time between beta releases, I'm starting to lose hope that anything like the FSD beta will ever make it to a wider release.

Paradoxically, I'm more disappointed with how Tesla has managed the last 5 months (since the beta release) than the last 5 years. The beta shows SO MUCH PROMISE, and rolling even *some* of these capabilities out to the public would be amazing. But they haven't released a single new AP/FSD capability (how about removing confirmation for traffic lights?), and have given no recent hints about when the beta might be widened.

I'm actually concerned that they have hit some kind of performance limit with the current FSD and they realize that a wide release just isn't practical. Back to the drawing board again?

I hope this post ages like milk

I thought that I was the only one with these feelings, since I had not seen any previous posts and I had not posted myself!

I am happy with my second Tesla (2020 S), however why should a "chosen few" have FSD and the rest of us, who have paid for FSD be left wondering what is happening?

 

[DerbyDave]

Dan, as mentioned earlier, by another individual, and if I remember correctly, there was a arbitration clause in the purchase agreement...

I opted out of the arbitration agreement within 30 days, as allowed under the purchase contract. I timely opt out in writing, and keep a copy, of ALL arbitration agreements (credit cards, etc.). I am not opposed to arbitration, but I want to keep all my legal choices, particularly in regards to class actions.

 

[nbergma]

OP obviously has some anger at the business practices of Tesla.

But in terms of batteries, I hope that everyone recalls when supercharging was potentially seen to damage the battery life. At this point, Tesla changed the warranty of the Motor and battery to 8 full years at -- wait for it--- unlimited mileage. This specific act fully and directly undercuts the complaint above. At that time, people were wondering if batteries would last more than 4 years.

My 2014 Model S has free supercharging and free premium connectivity for life -- as well as a motor/battery warranty, and this is one reason I will not be buying a different car until September 8, 2022.

Also- paying $300/month for FSD - what a waste for most people- I could arrange a Lyft blackcar to drive me for that month and skip both the car and FSD. The value of a service, such as FSD, is very much based upon if I can do it myself. I will not pay for a live in cook for my food, a butler to dress me, or a FSD to drive me, until I can't do it myself.

Let's not forget that the main point of FSD, beyond the "cool" factor, is that, when properly implemented, it will be significantly safer than non-autonomous driving.

 

[MobileClimate]

Elon should just have people sign a waiver I do notice that autopilot is getting better with each version just tried autopilot on the latest version and noticed some improvements with freeway car spacing and intersections

 

[BeerFizz]

The issue with FSD, or partials of FSD, not being distributed is due to arguments/discussions with the NHTSA as I understand it. After all they are in control and regulate motor vehicles and related equipment, not Tesla.

 

[run-the-joules]

The issue with FSD, or partials of FSD, not being distributed is due to arguments/discussions with the NHTSA as I understand it. After all they are in control and regulate motor vehicles and related equipment, not Tesla.

I'm not going to believe that unless I see official, written communications from a government body supporting the claim. It's too easy for Tesla to blame shift, and they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt since they've lied about so much already.

 

[PrGrPa]

I use Smart Summon almost every that I go to Costco, Home Depot, etc. I park in such a manner as I can see the car the entire time.

If only the U.K. regulators would let this happen. Summon, let alone smart summon, is a frustration here rather than a feature.

 

[MikeHolliday]

How many of you here have seen the Munro & Associates most resent videos on Tesla? Sandy Munro has definitely not been a Tesla fanboy, but I encourage you to listen carefully to his two most recent videos.

 

[dinonugget]

The issue with FSD, or partials of FSD, not being distributed is due to arguments/discussions with the NHTSA as I understand it. After all they are in control and regulate motor vehicles and related equipment, not Tesla.

So this whole time, NHTSA is the party that set the requirement for Tesla to only release FSD beta to YouTube influencers!

 

[PrGrPa]

Unsure if FSD will work in my driving lifetime. Hoping I have at least 30 years of that left.

I am impressed with what EAP can do on non-urban roads in my Model S and what FSD can do with speed limit and stop light detection on my SO’s Model 3.

The capabilities are somewhat better than several allegedly comparable vehicles I’ve driven have done.

My first world dilemma is do I buy EAP on my next Tesla or Pay twice as much and get the traffic light and speed limit extras?

on the ‘pay up’ side are: no sleeping at green lights and no outdated speed limits.

on the ‘woah, save your money’ side are: no pesky stopping or reminders at green lights and no 20MPH limit imposed on autopilot because a side street sign was wonky.

 

[WatcherXP]

Anyone who thinks that Level 5 is gonna happen in the next 5 years has not been paying attention to the last 20.

Even if Tesla had something kinda close, there is no way it would be legal to use.

 

[dckiwi]

The issue with FSD, or partials of FSD, not being distributed is due to arguments/discussions with the NHTSA as I understand it.

Source?

 

[DerbyDave]

Source?

Use Google and search for "Level 5 autonomy obstacles".

 

[yuezhuus]

Me personally paid for EAP instead of FSD when I purchased my Model 3. I am happy with the purchase so far.

 

[MikeHolliday]

Use Google and search for "Level 5 autonomy obstacles".

What do you do for an occupation? Having 2 engineering degrees, I do not think that you truly understand. As far as I am concerned accomplishing this is less difficult than bringing a booster back to earth and have it land on a barge in the Atlantic and SpaceX can accomplish that 90% plus of the time. When I view the FSD Beta versions that have been released in the last few weeks it is 90% plus there. At this point from what I see it is a matter of tweeks... And yes, if you wish you can call me crazy.

To operate without a driver, a Level 5 autonomous car must see its surroundings, perceive obstacles and finally act safely based on its perceptions. Seeing, perceiving and acting — on par with humans or better — are three big obstacles to the implementation of Level 5 autonomous vehicle

 

[Beprimeau]

Even though I am a big Tesla fan, I agree that for the very high FSD buy-in price, the benefits so far have been very paltry and very much slower in coming than I expected. I do like the traffic signal recognition and traffic-aware cruise control, but those are not worth the many thousands of dollars of mine that Tesla has been able to hold onto for all this time.

 

[DerbyDave]

What do you do for an occupation? Having 2 engineering degrees, I do not think that you truly understand. As far as I am concerned accomplishing this is less difficult than bringing a booster back to earth and have it land on a barge in the Atlantic and SpaceX can accomplish that 90% plus of the time. When I view the FSD Beta versions that have been released in the last few weeks it is 90% plus there. At this point from what I see it is a matter of tweeks... And yes, if you wish you can call me crazy.

To operate without a driver, a Level 5 autonomous car must see its surroundings, perceive obstacles and finally act safely based on its perceptions. Seeing, perceiving and acting — on par with humans or better — are three big obstacles to the implementation of Level 5 autonomous vehicle

There are issues of redundancy and failsafe operation -- missing with the current hardware and software on our cars. One city, county, state may be opposed, and pass laws not allowing level 5. When the cop pulls you over, and the car must be able to do this automatically as a normal driver would, who is charged? In an accident, who represents the car? Laws must be written and enacted. Who will insure the car and passengers with no driver? Then we have the technical aspects you mention. The car must be able to drive in all environments safely. Snow and Ice on the road with others out driving on it, will a Tesla be able to do that in the next 5 years? Foggy or poor visual conditions -- Tesla relies way to much on vision technology for it to be effective in reduced visibility and will never match humans without added sensors. There is so much more that we are not near overcoming in the real world on our roads. Rockets are easy. There is no traffic or stoplights in space and things are fairly predictable - no pedestrians and animals running out between cars. FSD even out of Beta is no where close to Level 5.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There are issues of redundancy and failsafe operation -- missing with the current hardware and software on our cars. One city, county, state may be opposed, and pass laws not allowing level 5. When the cop pulls you over, and the car must be able to do this automatically as a normal driver would, who is charged? In an accident, who represents the car? Laws must be written and enacted. Who will insure the car and passengers with no driver? Then we have the technical aspects you mention. The car must be able to drive in all environments safely. Snow and Ice on the road with others out driving on it, will a Tesla be able to do that in the next 5 years? Foggy or poor visual conditions -- Tesla relies way to much on vision technology for it to be effective in reduced visibility and will never match humans without added sensors. There is so much more that we are not near overcoming in the real world on our roads. Rockets are easy. There is no traffic or stoplights in space and things are fairly predictable - no pedestrians and animals running out between cars. FSD even out of Beta is no where close to Level 5.

To be clear SAE Level 5 (the only relatively standardized definition) requires none of the things you laid out. All it requires different from Level 4 is: “Permits engagement of the ADS under all driver-manageable on-road conditions”

Level 4: “Permits engagement only within its ODD”

Also posted is this definition of it:
"The sustained and unconditional (i.e., not ODD-specific) performance by an ADS of the entire DDT and DDT fallback without any expectation that a user will respond to a request to intervene. "
With example:
"A vehicle with an ADS that, once programmed with a destination, is capable of operating the vehicle through out complete trips on public roadways, regardless of the starting and end points or intervening road, traffic, and weather conditions."
Tesla Full Self Driving Level 5 Autonomy

As long as the system can activate in all road conditions a human can and can safely fallback in such conditions if it comes to a situation it can't handle, it can qualify as L5. SAE does not specific what type of human level it needs to perform at (average? the best? the bare minimum allowed on the road?) They also do not specify the car needs to handle situations like police stops (or even hand signals for example). It in fact it specifies no tests at all. There is no minimum requirements for safety or driving ability (you can have one that drives like a student driver, and it's no less a L5 car than a system that can drive like an experienced driver).