Unless you opted out of arbitration within 30 days of purchase, your only remedy with a Tesla dispute is binding arbitration, as you have waived your rights to participate in class actions with Tesla. Everyone remember to opt out of arbitration by following the process to do so in your purchase contract within 30 days.
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Unhappy with FSD sales and pricing
- Thread starter KITT77
- Start date
rxlawdude
Active Member
What is interesting is that binding arbitration terms tend to allow a carveout allowing small claims court actions by the consumer. There is, indeed, specific language in Tesla's contract with the SCC carveout.
Looking briefly through the legal academic discussions, it seems these carveouts are common, and in some jurisdictions, implied. The rationale is that the SCCs are more "consumer friendly" and somewhat tilt the balance against the costs and risks of arbitration for relatively small dollar claims.
But if multiple owners who feel wronged were to each sue in SCC, that would certainly get attention from upper management. There are no gag orders on an SCC verdict (unlike that likelihood under arbitration), so anyone suing for a refund of FSD and winning should proudly announce it here on TMC!
But as I've opined, someone needs to test the legal theories that the negative nabobs have proffered in SCC. I don't believe the court will find for the owners for the myriad reasons beaten to death in this and other threads, but it would be fascinating to track.
The current price of FSD is worth the $10,000. Without auto-steer in City Streets, my Tesla can take me from my house to work 90% all on autopilot. I arrive at work and enable auto park. My stress level behind the wheel has been significantly dropped since the day I took delivery.
FSD is a case-by-case situation. Some believe all the features available today are worthwhile while other do not agree. That is where the FSD subscription comes into place. Pay $199/month and cancel anytime. Plus FSD subscription is prorated so you subscribe on the first of the month and then cancel. You will have access to features for a whole month.
Once the FSD beta goes wide, the price of FSD becomes 100% worth it.
FSD is a case-by-case situation. Some believe all the features available today are worthwhile while other do not agree. That is where the FSD subscription comes into place. Pay $199/month and cancel anytime. Plus FSD subscription is prorated so you subscribe on the first of the month and then cancel. You will have access to features for a whole month.
Once the FSD beta goes wide, the price of FSD becomes 100% worth it.
FSD subscription is not prorated if you cancel. You pay $199 a month and get a month of access. If you cancel after a day, you’re still paying $199 plus tax. Prorated means you’d get a refund for unused days after canceling.
K1Woods
Member
the slow release of software this year and the .1 fsd beta increment after 3 weeks is very discouraging. Don't understand why they released the subscription. It just alienated long term FSD owners and provides minimal value to new subscribers over the base AP. A large majority caught up in the initial wave will cancel, others will just sit on the fence till city streets is released. Makes me wonder, are all the developers on summer vacation??
You’re right in that the feature sets aren’t perfection (sometimes, not close to it). For me, summon does have value when I’ve got the car in the driveway alongside another and the family needs to get in or out. I can simply move it back to a position where I don’t have cars side by side. If I’m cleaning my rims or putting Tire shine on, I can move the car to get other areas of the tire or rim without having to -be- in the car. These are tiny tiny little things and examples but they do translate, over time, to convenience. It’s the same for me with navigate on auto pilot or auto lane changes or red light recognition or the alert when the light changes to green. I also enjoy seeing the betterment happen over time snd in the knowing, regardless of how many iterations it take, they’ll come free for me…over months and years and my car will just keep getting better at what it does. I like that “give back” over time. I think, for me, I don’t view FSD as a static situation…at all…rather..I pair my expectations alongside an understanding we’re 100% Beta but…I’m going to keep getting a better version of Beta over and over, free (well…not “free” but at that one time charge I already paid for long ago).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Subscription gives them immediate revenue boost and gives them something to talk about for the upcoming earnings call. Sure, a lot initial people may cancel, but Tesla gets $200 from them.
The cynic would say this allows them to double dip: a lot of the people trying one month now will likely try again when FSD Beta reaches general release. If instead they waited until then, they miss out on the initial group. There are also people who may be satisfied with the current functionality, so they might as well launch it now for those people and start collecting money.
Personally, I had a 3 month trial as a promotion, so have no desire to spend for the subscription at the moment, but I can foresee myself just trying for a month when FSD Beta gets to general release.
I think the FSD subscription will be very useful for road-tripping. Just sign-up for how long you need it and then cancel.
$100/200 per month is a lot and the margins are great for Tesla.
$100/200 per month is a lot and the margins are great for Tesla.
K1Woods
Member
agreed, if I had a choice I wouldn't have spent the $10K for the FSD upgrade. Subscription is a good deal right now (price wise)
Also not sure if this is good for Tesla long term. I imagine that growing the subscription MRC is important. Not sure if Tesla will see that growth if folks subscribe and cancel often. If FSD is released and the subscription goes up, my perception would probably change or if they allow transfers eventually.
I wonder if I can use arbitration as a way to get into the FSD beta program. 
I wish you would do it. It should be used to settle any dispute. I'll join you in a class-action arbitration process. It should be the same, only thru arbitration rather than the courts. We can be the first to do thisI wonder if I can use arbitration as a way to get into the FSD beta program.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
They did say "automatic driving on city streets" was "coming this year" in both 2019 and 2020...I wonder if I can use arbitration as a way to get into the FSD beta program.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually they said "later this year" in 2019 when the traffic lights control was still pending. After traffic lights control came out (so the only item remaining was city streets) around April 2020, they replaced it with upcoming. Then around 1/27-1/28/2021 they changed it to later this year again. Had this discussion a while back.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/fsd-city-release-date-keeps-getting-pushed.219216/
I sent an email to resolutions requesting that I either get refunded for the price of FSD, or immediately added to the group of Beta testers.
I cited my safe driving record and the timelines put forth by Elon the primary reasons in addition to the fact that we already paid for the software and clearly they feel it is safe enough for public roads with responsible drivers since it is in the wild now.
I cited my safe driving record and the timelines put forth by Elon the primary reasons in addition to the fact that we already paid for the software and clearly they feel it is safe enough for public roads with responsible drivers since it is in the wild now.
During the company's earnings call on Monday, Musk said: "We need to make Full Self-Driving work in order for it to be a compelling value proposition."
He added customers were essentially "betting on the future"
For me? Level 2 isnt worth $10k. Not even close. When it gets to the point where it actually does in the real world what Elon has said it will do via twitter many times? Thats Level 4 and thats what is worth $10k. To me. But right now? Its same level as Cadillac Supercruise: Level2.
Level 4: No human interaction required
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Do you think it likely they’d put you as a “Beta tester” if your (at the same time/alternately) asking for a refund? I’m suspecting that’s going to prove…unfruitful.
You're probably right, and it might end up just guaranteeing that I'm the very last person that gets it. I'm not asking for a refund and added as a beta tester, I'm saying I want the beta OR a refund.
They replied trying to say the button in 10 days was supposedly only for beta testers, and that they had no control, I had to email earlyaccess etc, and they don't do refunds.
I replied to that with the screenshots of Elon's tweets showing that it definitely wasn't for only existing beta testers, and how it seems like we are at an impasse, and that it seems like the next step is to open a case with AAA for arbitration. Stated that I will wait until after Friday at midnight when 9.1 is released to open a case with AAA if i don't get Beta.
My argument is going to be that this was stated for wide release for everyone who purchased it in March and was willing to accept specific terms and conditions, then the button was tied to v9, which was subsequently released, but only to the existing beta testers, then it went to v10 or 11, but the next update is 9.1, meaning they can keep pushing out a ton of sub updates.
Clearly they feel it's safe enough for public use because they pushed it out to 71 non employees, which appears to be more based on social influencing ability than driving style/record.
I figure at worst, I don't get the software, at best they don't want to waste money on arbitration fees, and decide to give it to me earlier than I'd otherwise get it.
Clearly they feel it's safe enough for public use because they pushed it out to 71 non employees, which appears to be more based on social influencing ability than driving style/record.
I figure at worst, I don't get the software, at best they don't want to waste money on arbitration fees, and decide to give it to me earlier than I'd otherwise get it.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Use Small Claims Court. No attorneys, no big costs. In many locales, the dispute limit is more than the cost of FSD. And it is a carve-out from the binding arbitration agreement if you didn't opt-out.
So pretty please, try suing in SCC and report back here your results. Personally, I don't think your case is a winner based on your purchase agreement and the clear caveats on all FSD materials (subject to "software validation"), but if one person wins a case like this (along with the court's reasoning), a plethora of such cases will get Tesla management's attention pretty quickly.
K1Woods
Member
What frustrates me is that Tesla deems the FSD beta safe enough for Youtube influencers, which one could argue could be more damaging than releasing to sensible FSD owners. Owners willing to accept liability for its faults to improve the software. Many of us are engineers and quality analysts for petes sake.
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