Unhappy with moderation and personal attacks?

[Doug_G]

Doug I appreciate you as Moderator but I am sorry to say that I, and also most of all TMC Members I think, are sensitive. So I would like to say to all TMC Moderators "please consider that we are sensitive before of punishing us and most important thing please warn us before of punishing us".

Restrictions and bans are never taken lightly, and are always done with ample reason.

 

[kort677]

Nothing was deleted. I repeat: Nothing. Was. Deleted.

Sir:
with all due respect; moving a post to a quarantine like thread is very similar to a deletion. Thank you for your considerations and the efforts that you expend on behalf of all the users of this valuable resource.

 

[MsElectric]

Nothing was deleted. I repeat: Nothing. Was. Deleted.

The post in question was pretty civil up until the name-calling. The name-calling was removed and the discussion around the name-calling was excised with it.

You're right, we discussed this already. The decision was made and still stands.

The point is you left intact the post that personally attacked me by surgically editing that post to sanitize it while you removed my entire post though I was respectful. So basically the post where another forum member was personally attacked and called an animal was left mostly intact in its entirety while the post of the person who was attacked, though was completely respectful and to the point, was removed in its entirety. In this case you treated the person who personally attacked another forum member better than the person who was actually attacked.

It's odd to take the position that you found enough time to sanitize and edit the post of someone who would engage in personal attacks but my respectful post in response had to be removed in its entirety.

Whether my respectful response was deleted, moderated, censored, moved to snippiness, or some other otherworldly space becomes moot when the actual post where a forum member was attacked was subject to none of that arbitrary moderation...

 

[doug]

Really... no need to rehash whatever drama you guys have publicly. Take a break and move on. If something needs the action of the moderators, bring it to our attention by using the report feature. Accept the fact that our actions won't be perfect and move on. There are more important things in life.

 

[MsElectric]

Respectfully, it's not the fanboy culture, MsElectric, it is individual jerks. Potshots have been taken at me continually by a small handful of those who disagree with positive posts I've made, to the point that I've found it so tiresome to deal with one particular poster that I spend less and less time on the forum (which has been noted by a few - amazingly, one of my critics has concluded it was because I couldn't defend Tesla so therefore I was quiet). It's a subtle form of harassment - first I quit moderating when I asked myself why I was spending personal time setting myself up as a target ... and now I'm here less and less. And it's easy to tell the group - they're the first ones to blame other forum members for everything and cry 'fanboy!' when someone disagrees with them, rather than engaging in real conversation.

So it's not the culture. It's individuals. Can't blame an entire group for a handful of people. I've always felt we'd be better off with real names online. (Which is why I use my name and my profile setting has my photo.) Studies have shown that people tend to behave better when their online presence is not anonymous.

Regarding the specific post you are talking about - iirc, the moderator only moved your post because it quoted the attack that you felt was unfair. Possibly an explanation to you privately would have made that clear. Sounds like it didn't happen. Also consider that the person who you feel attacked you could have received a sanction, negative rep, or had other actions taken by the moderator handling. That information would not have been shared with you.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts about this and I agree it is not the entire forum but a small number of people who act like jerks. The vast majority of people here are very decent, informative people with a lot to share and contribute.

On the plus side there is definitely a benefit to not spending as much time on the forum as my productivity went up significantly the week or so I took a break from the forum. Maybe I should be personally attacked more often as that will cause me to spend less time here and I will get more done... :tongue:

I would like others to be treated more fairly in the future by moderators in a similar situation. Though I did not appreciate being personally attacked, I am capable of standing up for myself. In an unmodulated forum I would have stood up for myself and respectfully pointed out my logic and the fact that I am not an animal

In this case what disturbed me the most was the fact that after I was personally attacked, a moderator essentially silenced me when my entire post was removed. I felt that not only was I personally attacked, I could not even respectfully disagree with the person who attacked me as my post was removed while the post that attacked me was just given a nice cleansing edit.

 

[jaguar36]

I think the moderators here do an amazing job, and should be commended on their actions, particularly in light of the fact that they are just volunteers doing this in their free time. I also love the fact that here in general things just get moved to snippiness rather than being completely erased. I find it quite frustrating to see on other forums when something gets deleted and wondering what was going on.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The point is you left intact the post that personally attacked me by surgically editing that post to sanitize it while you removed my entire post though I was respectful. So basically the post where another forum member was personally attacked and called an animal was left mostly intact in its entirety while the post of the person who was attacked, though was completely respectful and to the point, was removed in its entirety. In this case you treated the person who personally attacked another forum member better than the person who was actually attacked.

It's odd to take the position that you found enough time to sanitize and edit the post of someone who would engage in personal attacks but my respectful post in response had to be removed in its entirety.

Whether my respectful response was deleted, moderated, censored, moved to snippiness, or some other otherworldly space becomes moot when the actual post where a forum member was attacked was subject to none of that arbitrary moderation...

I think it's the right way to approach it. The tone of reply doesn't matter. The whole context gets moved.

 

[mknox]

I just want to jump in here and say that I think the moderators are doing a fantastic job and should be commended for being able to suss out intentions and determine the difference between "heated discussion" and "ill intent" all from a distance. Without the human interfaces we have in normal conversation, such as a wink, smile and so forth, we can often send the "wrong message" from our keyboards. It's got to be hard to tell when that wrong message needs to go, and not every snip and cut of moderation is going to be perfect.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I just want to jump in here and say that I think the moderators are doing a fantastic job and should be commended for being able to suss out intentions and determine the difference between "heated discussion" and "ill intent" all from a distance. Without the human interfaces we have in normal conversation, such as a wink, smile and so forth, we can often send the "wrong message" from our keyboards. It's got to be hard to tell when that wrong message needs to go, and not every snip and cut of moderation is going to be perfect.

I totally agree. I own/run/moderate a large-ish forum, and I don't have time to do things like that -- instead I generally moderate with a machete which is much easier and less time consuming. So I can totally see the care and time that the mods take here to make sure that doesn't happen, and that they're proud of their work. Thanks!

 

[thegruf]

Really... no need to rehash whatever drama you guys have publicly. Take a break and move on. If something needs the action of the moderators, bring it to our attention by using the report feature. Accept the fact that our actions won't be perfect and move on. There are more important things in life.

^this.
and what's more I vote to shut this thread down as it is not serving any worthwhile purpose and will not go anywhere.
Mods do an excellent job here compared to most other forums. Cut them some slack imho.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Restrictions and bans are never taken lightly, and are always done with ample reason.

Ok but a warning has always to be given to a TMC Member before of punishing him. In fact maybe that the TMC Member doesn't even realize that he is doing something wrong as it happened to me.
Then I always behaved good. So I think that I don't deserve to be under moderation for life.

 

[Doug_G]

Moved a post to snippiness. Please don't respond to "examples" of discussions that are posted... it's just going to get nasty.

 

[jerry33]

Back a thousand years ago, there was a small network called FidoNet. It had two rules:

• Don't be excessively annoying.
• Don't be easily annoyed.

It wouldn't hurt for most of us (including myself) to keep that in mind more often.

In addition to this, bear in mind that the only thing a TMC reader sees is what's on paper. There are no audio or body language clues, so often something that is inoffensive when talking face to face becomes offensive when only the words are read.

And yes, the Moderators do a great job.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This is a strange thread. When did the forum come to this?

I would just like to add a word of support to MsElectric, whose starting post could of course have been mine as well. It is a very familiar perspective and one that many, many others have PMde about as well. I don't know MsElectric and their particulars, but generally speaking this all sounds very familiar to me. Many people won't speak out for the fear of receiving the ire of a vocal part of the community.

I would argue it is probably about more than just individuals, it is in the culture of TMC to be fairly defensive of Tesla. Much of this probably is historical, defense of Tesla against real attacks and dismissals media, analysts etc. The "don't quote" signatures, as odd as they are, tell of this history. If it is individuals merely, then their number, friendship between them and volume is sufficient to render it similar to culture.

I personally think people would do well to consider these messages like MsElectric and see if perhaps there is something to consider there.

- - - Updated - - -

Restrictions and bans are never taken lightly, and are always done with ample reason.

If it helps, I must say sometimes it is a problem that moderation seems to rather focus on the victim who tries to defend themselves - while personal attacks go unnoticed.

It can feel unfair that defense is the point where things are often tidied away (perhaps even with negative rep, infractions etc. to the one who defended themselves), so that no real ability to get a chance to rebutt exists... The attacker sort of gets the final word in such instances.

 

[tomas]

I would just like to add a word of support to MsElectric, whose starting post could of course have been mine as well. It is a very familiar perspective and one that many, many others have PMde about as well. I don't know MsElectric and their particulars, but generally speaking this all sounds very familiar to me. Many people won't speak out for the fear of receiving the ire of a vocal part of the community.

I would argue it is probably about more than just individuals, it is in the culture of TMC to be fairly defensive of Tesla. Much of this probably is historical, defense of Tesla against real attacks and dismissals media, analysts etc. The "don't quote" signatures, as odd as they are, tell of this history. If it is individuals merely, then their number, friendship between them and volume is sufficient to render it similar to culture.

I personally think people would do well to consider these messages like MsElectric and see if perhaps there is something to consider there.

I considered it. But Nah, there isn't.

The forum is rife with criticisms of Tesla. Some phrased as "constructive criticism", and some blatantly in their face. Some warranted, some not. Forum is also teeming with support for tesla. Some rational, some blind. A few chronic critics dismiss supporters as fanboys. A few supporters get irate at critics. People who do either are taking it way, way too seriously. But, geez, what do you expect in a forum. These things attract extremes, and anonymity provides cover for aggression.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

^this.
and what's more I vote to shut this thread down as it is not serving any worthwhile purpose and will not go anywhere.
Mods do an excellent job here compared to most other forums. Cut them some slack imho.

Comments like this are common on TMC but IMO not helpful, but instead a manifestation of the problem.

Perhaps it makes some people happy but my contributions to TMC are definitely down due to this very common community reaction as well as the prevalence of similar on moderation. Over PM and email I have been told more such stories.

I think the site, the community and the moderation would do well to hear also this side of the story. Silencing it is definitely not the way to go, especially not when the sub-forum is Site Feedback.

- - - Updated - - -

The point is when I was bullied by someone by being personally attacked and called an animal, you decided to pick that moment to pile on me by sending me a bizarre diatribe of insinuations and accusations. There can be no moral justification for someone being bullied or personally attacked. It is wrong.

---- Your PM to me ---

View attachment 95021
---- Your PM to me ---

Who are you to question my motives and to accuse me of being "short on Tesla?" Are you seriously making the accusation that my grand scheme here is to point out in detail a few policies where Tesla can be more reasonable to their customers or provide better service and that somehow will bring me a financial windfall? Go read my posts going back months and you'll see that I have been respectful in my discourse with other forum members and I have pointed out what I feel is fair and what is not fair. There are times that I have been on Tesla's side (like when the discussion about Autopilot delays came up) and there have been times where I have been on the side of a Tesla owner (such as with the situation that came up with Cyclone's CPO car).

Your accusation that I am "short on Tesla" and that I "crap on everything" is indeed a bizarre accusation. It's all the more distressing when considering the fact that you are essentially stating that this is the reason and justification that I was personally attacked as if to excuse the personal attack. Such an attitude is precisely what I am talking about that is wrong with the present culture of this forum. This is precisely why several forum members who have been immensely valuable to the community here have left. On a public forum, forum members should be able to share their thoughts, both positive and negative, without being bullied, personally attacked, or unfair accusations lobbed against them.

If you keep this up where those who might have a different opinion are attacked, TMC will become a nice eco chamber and I doubt that's what anyone wants.

Short on Tesla is indeed one trauma on TMC. Historical reasons seem to make people pull that assumption trigger far too easily in topics viewed as critical of Tesla.

 

[Doug_G]

The "don't quote" signatures, as odd as they are, tell of this history.

You apparently don't know the history, so perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to use that to support your position.

Those notices were instigated by someone in the media taking a number of posts from TMC - including mine - completely out of context and with no attribution, and spinning them to inappropriately slam Tesla. If they had talked to me they would have gotten the story straight, but I'm pretty certain that truth wasn't their goal - they simply twisted my words (and others') to invent the story they wanted.

Every organization has its shortcomings, and reasonable criticisms of Tesla are entirely appropriate in this forum. While I am obviously a fan of the company and it's mission, I have criticized Tesla many times on this forum... and I haven't been the target of anyone's wrath because my comments were fair and reasonable.

 

[dsm363]

I considered it. But Nah, there isn't.

The forum is rife with criticisms of Tesla. Some phrased as "constructive criticism", and some blatantly in their face. Some warranted, some not. Forum is also teeming with support for tesla. Some rational, some blind. A few chronic critics dismiss supporters as fanboys. A few supporters get irate at critics. People who do either are taking it way, way too seriously. But, geez, what do you expect in a forum. These things attract extremes, and anonymity provides cover for aggression.

Pretty good summary.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You apparently don't know the history, so perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to use that to support your position.

Those notices were instigated by someone in the media taking a number of posts from TMC - including mine - completely out of context and with no attribution, and spinning them to inappropriately slam Tesla. If they had talked to me they would have gotten the story straight, but I'm pretty certain that truth wasn't their goal - they simply twisted my words (and others') to invent the story they wanted.

Every organization has its shortcomings, and reasonable criticisms of Tesla are entirely appropriate in this forum. While I am obviously a fan of the company and it's mission, I have criticized Tesla many times on this forum... and I haven't been the target of anyone's wrath because my comments were fair and reasonable.

I do know the history and referred exactly to it. My missed point: Like I said, the "don't quote" signatures represent a response to real historical attacks - as do the "short on Tesla" comments.

My point is, many are unfortunately still in this defensive of Tesla mode that may have started with real reason but seems to continue today even in cases where no such attack is present.

In other words, IMO due to past real attacks, some people are too fast to assume present-day criticism of Tesla as such and react IMO inappropriately defensively.

Trauma of the past is hurting still today. Tesla has matured and community grown. Startup shorters are much less effective and prevalent than actual people interested and using Tesla product. The community response should evolve in kind.

Do you think it is normal behavior to ask someone if they are short on Tesla?

 

[Ocelot]

You apparently don't know the history, so perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to use that to support your position.

Those notices were instigated by someone in the media taking a number of posts from TMC - including mine - completely out of context and with no attribution, and spinning them to inappropriately slam Tesla. If they had talked to me they would have gotten the story straight, but I'm pretty certain that truth wasn't their goal - they simply twisted my words (and others') to invent the story they wanted.

Every organization has its shortcomings, and reasonable criticisms of Tesla are entirely appropriate in this forum. While I am obviously a fan of the company and it's mission, I have criticized Tesla many times on this forum... and I haven't been the target of anyone's wrath because my comments were fair and reasonable.

I believe you quickly read and quickly misinterpreted AR's comment.