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Unions

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by AnOutsider, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    heh :)

    I'll admit to not being too knowledgeable on this front, but as an entrepreneur that likes to remain nimble, I shudder at the idea of any bureaucracy.
     
  2. Tesla 940

    Tesla 940 Member

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    Unions are one reason I drive a Toyota pick-up instead of a GM, Ford, Dodge.
     
  3. Ole

    Ole Member

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    Unions are also a major reason why so many ordinary middle-class Norwegians both want a Model S and can afford one.
     
  4. TSLAopt

    TSLAopt Active Member

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    Ive always thought that unions and capitalism do not go together. However, Elon is smart and I have faith in his decision making when it comes to this, perhaps the relationship would be structured in such a way where it would become an advantage to Tesla Motors.
     
  5. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    The primary reason Norwegian GDP per capita is twice that of other Scandinavian countries would be North Sea Oil.

    Export revenues from oil and gas have risen to almost 50% of total exports and constitute more than 20% of Norwegian GDP. Norway is the fifth-largest oil exporter and third-largest gas exporter in the world. But has a population of only 5.1M.

    What is essentially free electricity from dams that makes up 96% if Norwegian demand also does not hurt.
    .
     
  6. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    #6 SwedishAdvocate, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    <sarcasm> Yes! All together now: We must continue to oppose all peoples’ right to freely organize! </sarcasm>


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    GDP per capita doesn’t say diddly squat about income equality.


    Edit: So it seems I was unaware of what seems to be a vital difference in employer & (unionized) employee relations that exists in the US on one hand, and Sweden on the other. See post #77 down thread. So I guess I have no other choice than to remain neutral on the topic of unions i the US until I have fully understood the differences…
     
  7. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    It does say how much income there is to equalize.

    If not for North Sea Oil, Norway would have ~$50K per capita to equalize much like Sweden and the USA that also have Unions.

    But a far smaller percentage would be able to afford a Model S.
     
  8. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    Unions and capitalism absolutely go together. A union is just a company that has a different perspective on profit to other companies.

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    The USA also has and had lots of natural resources. It just chose a different way to exploit them.
     
  9. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    The USA does not have the cash value of natural resources per capita that Norway does. The USA is more akin to a country between Brazil and Russia.

    Norway is like a little Kuwait stuck in Northern Europe.
     
  10. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    #10 SwedishAdvocate, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
    Educative tidbits of the day:

     
  11. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    Educative tidbits don't disprove my contentions one bit.
     
  12. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    So how do the people of Norway currently get their hands on the oil money?
     
  13. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    According to your own previous post, it's saving individuals gobs of money in taxes. It's paying for your pensions, and supporting government programs.
     
  14. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    There are all kinds of fees and taxes and indirect ways oil money supports current Norwegian government speding.

    The pension contributions that Americans and Swedes must pay that are not paid by Norwegians.

    The interest Americans and Swedes pay on government borrowing that is not done in Norway because of the oil money.
    and the credit rating as a direct result of the oil money.

    The difference in standard of living between Norway and Sweden, and indirectly the Middle Class's ability to purchase a Model S is not because Norwegian bureaucrats and Union bosses are so much more brilliant at managing the economy than American and Swedish ones. The source is the oil money.
     
  15. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    #15 SwedishAdvocate, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
    I don’t know. But the way the media paints it in Sweden is that most of the money stays in the ‘oil fund’. Rob argues that the relative income equality in Norway is due to something else than unions. I don’t see how he can make a claim that it’s not at least in large parts due to unions.


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    The degree of unionization in Sweden was ~68% the first quarter 2012. What was the degree of unionization at that point in time in the US?

    Source: LO - Högre organisationsgrad (in Swedish)


    Edit: So it seems I was unaware of what seems to be a vital difference in employer & (unionized) employee relations that exists in the US on one hand, and Sweden on the other. See post #77 down thread. So I guess I have no other choice than to remain neutral on the topic of unions in the US until I have fully understood the differences…
     
  16. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    So your contention is the difference between Norway's $100k per capita standard of living and Sweden's ~$53k per capita standard of living is that Norwegians are just that much smarter than Swedes at organizing themselves since workers vote for union leadership and voters elect political leaders.
     
  17. SwedishAdvocate

    SwedishAdvocate Active Member

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    As I understand it the the degree of unionization in Norway is ~50%.
     
  18. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    #18 ItsNotAboutTheMoney, Jan 3, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2014
    I think you're missing his point completely. He's not arguing that the oil doesn't provide wealth, but that Norway's approach to the oil helps promote wealth and income equality since Norway both encourages domestic efficiency and retains the profits in a long-term investment fund. It's easy to contrast that with policies in other nations that subsidize inefficiency, privatize or take a laissez-faire approach to energy.
     
  19. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    America has Three Independent Auto Makers.

    How many does Sweden have?
     
  20. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    If I may dare to bring this thread back on topic, if Tesla treats its workers fairly and pays them well, there won't be any need for a union. Unions tend to arise when workers are exploited.
     

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