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UP of Michigan to receive its first fast DC charger but..
- Thread starter Billyk24
- Start date
sdoorex
Member
The video for the city council of Norway for the 12/21 meeting is now online. They begin discussing the ChargePoint charger at 33:22 into the video. TL;DW:
ChargePoint rates:
I think they will end up rounding up the cost to the nearest cent so $0.32/kWh on-peak and $0.25/kWh off peak unless ChargePoint can handle sub-cent charges.
The rates should show up on the rate sheet here soon: The City of Norway, MI
ChargePoint rates:
- $0.3149/kWh - on-peak
- $0.2456/kWh - off-peak
- $2.20 connection fee
I think they will end up rounding up the cost to the nearest cent so $0.32/kWh on-peak and $0.25/kWh off peak unless ChargePoint can handle sub-cent charges.
The rates should show up on the rate sheet here soon: The City of Norway, MI
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Those kWh rates look reasonable, but I've never understood why some sites charge a connection fee. Are they charged that by ChargePoint? Otherwise, it just seems to incentivize longer charges when it would be better to incentivize shorter charges...
sdoorex
Member
I think connection fees are needed to offset demand charges which are charged by utilities on top of the kWh rate and are determined by the peak demand in kW. Those demand charges can be reduced by usage of a battery to handle spikes in peak demand, which is something that the bigger Tesla Supercharger sites are starting to do.
I understand they have to pay demand charges, but does it cost the city more if someone does two 10 kWh charges vs one 20 kWh charge? If not, then the connection fee only serves to incentivize people to sit there and charge to 100%, thus hogging the resource, compared to adding fees by the minute or just charging by the kWh. Of course, there may not initially be too much competition for use of this charger in Norway, MI.
sdoorex
Member
Good point about it encouraging longer charges but per minute charges on top of per kWh charges aren’t particularly popular with EV owners.I understand they have to pay demand charges, but does it cost the city more if someone does two 10 kWh charges vs one 20 kWh charge? If not, then the connection fee only serves to incentivize people to sit there and charge to 100%, thus hogging the resource, compared to adding fees by the minute or just charging by the kWh. Of course, there may not initially be too much competition for use of this charger in Norway, MI.
I spoke with City Manager Anderson last week. I mentioned that with the session fee, if a charge session is interrupted and restarted, then he may have to take phone calls from customers. We also talked about per-KWH vs. per-minute. I mentioned that the per-KWH approach can lead to some jerk with a slow-charging Chevy Bolt(*) staying plugged-in for an extra 80 minutes, because it doesn't cost them anything extra. He actually felt that could be desirable if they are dining and shopping... obviously the city has different priorities. But he mostly wanted to stick with the exact recommendation which their power co-op had prepared.
95% of the city's power comes from their hydro dam, so theoretically they shouldn't have to care much about demand, nor peak/offpeak. But it's very old tech, so no demand-response system.
When I drive through Norway, I'll be cruising into town "on fumes." When I get up there, I may talk to them about getting a backup 240v option. If there was ever a problem with their charger, I would rather charge slowly for 3 hours than have to L1 overnight at America's Best (again). If anybody wants to help crowd-fund an L2/DC, let me know.
(*)I can joke about it because I have a Bolt
95% of the city's power comes from their hydro dam, so theoretically they shouldn't have to care much about demand, nor peak/offpeak. But it's very old tech, so no demand-response system.
When I drive through Norway, I'll be cruising into town "on fumes." When I get up there, I may talk to them about getting a backup 240v option. If there was ever a problem with their charger, I would rather charge slowly for 3 hours than have to L1 overnight at America's Best (again). If anybody wants to help crowd-fund an L2/DC, let me know.
(*)I can joke about it because I have a Bolt
No, 1 x 20kWh session vs 2 x 10kWh sessions shouldn't make a difference to the city's cost. The issue is that the station is going to be a pretty minimally utilized resource. I'm sure the rate schedule is designed to meet a certain minimum revenue threshold based on their expected number of charging sessions and kWhs of electricity dispensed per month. With more sessions, it's easier to get away from a pricey "connection fee" and instead make that money by spreading it out over all the volumetric charges (i.e. raising the price per kWh a little bit). But with a station that doesn't get many charging sessions, that isn't really a very good strategy.I understand they have to pay demand charges, but does it cost the city more if someone does two 10 kWh charges vs one 20 kWh charge? If not, then the connection fee only serves to incentivize people to sit there and charge to 100%, thus hogging the resource, compared to adding fees by the minute or just charging by the kWh. Of course, there may not initially be too much competition for use of this charger in Norway, MI.
In my experience there are 2 reasons for this:
1) The big reason is that the combined rate (time + kWh) is often way too high (often > $0.50/kWh)
2) Sometimes the charger isn't working properly, and time-based rates penalize the user for this (when they're already being penalized by slow charging).
At the end of the day, per kWh rates and idle fees (as Tesla uses except in states where they must charge by time) end up being the most straightforward in most cases. But it does get tricky when there's only one charger available, because someone might really need it. BC Hydro chargers in Canada have a rule of 40 minutes or 80% charge (whichever comes first) when someone is waiting, which seems like a good system, but I think compliance is on the honor system.
sdoorex
Member
I’m glad that Fox UP wrote an article from my news tip!
City of Norway gets fastest electric vehicle charge in Upper Michigan
City of Norway gets fastest electric vehicle charge in Upper Michigan
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Has anyone actually TRIED it? Please post to PlugShare.
It's still not feeding into ABetterRoutePlanner
It's still not feeding into ABetterRoutePlanner
sdoorex
Member
I'd like to use Norway as an example when talking to some other Yooper towns. Anybody who charges there, please consider visiting Blackstone Company (pizza/brewpub), Viking Motel, Northern Expressions, Norway Mercantile, True Value or Pat's Foods, etc.. Mention that you're there charging your car and ask them to thank Downtown Development and the city council. That will help get more chargers.
sdoorex
Member
Norway is online today per ChargePoint. A bit more info on the pricing:
Price (Set by City of Norway MI)
Energy
Weekdays 12am - 8am $0.24560/kWh
8am - 8pm $0.31490/kWh
8pm - 12am $0.24560/kWh
Weekends 12am - 12am $0.24560/kWh
Min / Max Fees
Flat Fee $2.20 per session
Price (Set by City of Norway MI)
Energy
Weekdays 12am - 8am $0.24560/kWh
8am - 8pm $0.31490/kWh
8pm - 12am $0.24560/kWh
Weekends 12am - 12am $0.24560/kWh
Min / Max Fees
Flat Fee $2.20 per session
They would need more grant money to fund additional changers. Current charger is not located where bathrooms or food service is. One has to walk 1-1.5 blocks to gas station for this. McDonalds is like 4 blocks away on US2. The location is not well lighted for night time use.
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