UP vs MPP Coilover

[kbecks13]

You didn't read my post properly then. My question is about MPP coliovers and you offered UP lowering springs. My response to that was UP lowering springs ride comfort is not great based on reviews I read here.

Ok definitely some confusion - but my point is basically that coilovers from either brand (MPP or UP) will give a better rider (softer on bumps/potholes) than stock mainly due to the more digressive valving that they use. They will also be stiffer in corners and give less body roll, it's a bit of "best of both worlds" and again is from the digressive valving.

But any way I just installed the UP moderates last weekend. They are actually a very good ride, similar to stock in comfort but tight in corners. The only problem is noise. I tried for days to get rid of the clunking over bumps/potholes/etc. I was able to reduce it a bit but not cure the 'clunk clunk' completely.

Give them a call, i've heard they have a solution!

UP coilovers are nice but expensive than MPP comfort Coilovers. So far not able to get good review from regular street drivers.

UP are cheaper than MPP (unless you're getting the comfort ones from MPP, but they aren't adjustable) and either way they are both pretty darn close in price. Both products are high quality, no cheap options from china just yet

 

[R1Fast]

UP are cheaper than MPP (unless you're getting the comfort ones from MPP, but they aren't adjustable) and either way they are both pretty darn close in price. Both products are high quality, no cheap options from china just yet

Wow - I didn't realize the comforts arent (damping) adjustable. Height obviously is... but man if I'm going to spring $2k~ for coilovers I'd think they would have to have some damping control. I guess we won't know what the ride will be like on the AWD comforts til they ship so its kind of a gamble to wait.

Hmmmm... maybe I need to save another $500 and get the sports.

 

[stickman]

Here's another shot of the coilovers off the car:

View attachment 372205

sexy.

 

[Murattukaalai]

@kbecks13 Rebound Dampening Adjustable - Looks like this adjustment I can fine tune for comfort ride that suits my needs. Thanks for this information. So I guess sport doesn't mean just for tracks then, looking at UP coilover as well.

 

[gilscales]

I'm actually running MUCH stiffer than stock

but with UP yes you will have an increase in comfort.

These statements seem a little bit conflicting, how can it be MUCH stiffer than stock yet more comfortable?

 

[kbecks13]

These statements seem a little bit conflicting, how can it be MUCH stiffer than stock yet more comfortable?

Glad you ask, i forgot to clarify this (i thought about it but didn't write it!). I test drove the regular UP coilovers before deciding to go stiffer on mine (perks of living in Los Angeles). The normal ones were pretty surprising with how smooth they were and there is a nice set of train tracks semi-buried in the road that i was using as my "reference bump". These are the ones that are more comfortable than stock.

I wanted my set to be pretty stiff/aggressive and felt the regular product they sold wasn't stiff enough for my track use, so i went higher. The spring rates i'm using are almost DOUBLE what the stock car uses

While my current springs are almost 2x stiffer than stock, i'd say the harsh feeling over the same train tracks is only 10-20% worse with a HUGE improvement in cornering ability. Also keep in mind that the aftermarket coilovers are likely more digressive than the stock one, so you do get less body roll AND better feel over bumps.

UP can also get you some custom springs if you want to go in the other direction (i.e softer) and since they design/develop these with their own engineers (not a big corporation like KW) they will change the valving to match the new spring rates, which is awesome.

 

[usofrob]

The Penske coil overs on my Lotus are about 3x stiffer than stock, but are noticably smoother over almost all surfaces. I believe it's as kbecks says, they're more digressive. It's quite magical.

 

[dfwatt]

Ok definitely some confusion - but my point is basically that coilovers from either brand (MPP or UP) will give a better rider (softer on bumps/potholes) than stock mainly due to the more digressive valving that they use. They will also be stiffer in corners and give less body roll, it's a bit of "best of both worlds" and again is from the digressive valving.



Give them a call, i've heard they have a solution!



UP are cheaper than MPP (unless you're getting the comfort ones from MPP, but they aren't adjustable) and either way they are both pretty darn close in price. Both products are high quality, no cheap options from china just yet

Thanks for all your informative posting on this but I have to ask a dumb question what do you mean by digressive valving? Obviously I'm familiar with more conventional terms like compression and rebound valving which can be differentially tuned. My limited experience with this on my Lexus IS 350 was that the compression valving contributed most to the perceived softness or harshness of the ride. Does digressive valving mean a relative uncoupling of flow rates in relationship to compression and rebound?

 

[kbecks13]

Thanks for all your informative posting on this but I have to ask a dumb question what do you mean by digressive valving? Obviously I'm familiar with more conventional terms like compression and rebound valving which can be differentially tuned. My limited experience with this on my Lexus IS 350 was that the compression valving contributed most to the perceived softness or harshness of the ride. Does digressive valving mean a relative uncoupling of flow rates in relationship to compression and rebound?

Are you familiar with shock dyno plots? They basically show how much force it takes to move the shock at a certain speed. Higher speeds require more force (imagine moving your hand quickly through oil vs slowly). When you adjust compression or rebound, you are slightly shifting this curve. Here are some plots showing this:

Totally random chart (not a Tesla) showing adjustability: https://wilhelmraceworks.com/images/shockdyno/koni_8611-1257_test_1.jpg

You can see how as you move the shock faster (i.e when you hit a sudden bump or pothole), it requires more force to move. When i say digressive, i'm referring to the general shape of that curve. Some shock "taper off" faster than others at the high end, which lets you absorb bumps/potholes while still having a stiff shock at lower shaft speeds (body roll/cornering).

Here's a shot of digressive vs linear shocks, you can see how a digressive shock requires less force to move at higher shaft speeds (bumps) but MORE force at low shaft speeds (body roll): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/linear+shock+valving1096554254.jpg

 

[dfwatt]

Next

Are you familiar with shock dyno plots? They basically show how much force it takes to move the shock at a certain speed. Higher speeds require more force (imagine moving your hand quickly through oil vs slowly). When you adjust compression or rebound, you are slightly shifting this curve. Here are some plots showing this:

Totally random chart (not a Tesla) showing adjustability: https://wilhelmraceworks.com/images/shockdyno/koni_8611-1257_test_1.jpg

You can see how as you move the shock faster (i.e when you hit a sudden bump or pothole), it requires more force to move. When i say digressive, i'm referring to the general shape of that curve. Some shock "taper off" faster than others at the high end, which lets you absorb bumps/potholes while still having a stiff shock at lower shaft speeds (body roll/cornering).

Here's a shot of digressive vs linear shocks, you can see how a digressive shock requires less force to move at higher shaft speeds (bumps) but MORE force at low shaft speeds (body roll): http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/linear+shock+valving1096554254.jpg

Thanks K Becks for that informative collection of images. Do you know if the MPP coilover shocks are digressive? These curves obviously suggests that you have to have either dual valves or some kind of modulation of the valve at higher shaft speeds? I can understand now why they call them digressive because to call them Progressive would be misleading. It's more like they are inverse Progressive.

 

[kbecks13]

Do you know if the MPP coilover shocks are digressive? These curves obviously suggests that you have to have either dual valves or some kind of modulation of the valve at higher shaft speeds?

They haven't confirmed, but it's pretty likely that they are more digressive in nature than the OEM shocks based on how they perform. There are a few different ways to create the difference, one age-old method is to use a certain type of shim stack that deflects more as the force on it increases.

Here's a shot of what i mean by shim stack, its literally a stack of thin precision geometry metal shims: http://www.shimrestackor.com/Code/Sample_Applications/Damping_Profile/Figs/10-digressive-mods.png

And this one shows how you can adjust dampening with the knob, you are basically opening/closing an orifice that leads to a bypass or bleed hole: http://www.shimrestackor.com/Physics/Fluid_Dynamics/Figs/1-adventure-bike-suspension-setup.png

 

[cab]

The digressive description sounds similar to what Koni describes in their FSD (frequency selective dampers) shocks.

 

[Hkbruin]

Hey there, how much was this all in as far as the install cost at this shop? Can I pick your brain some more regarding your experience, and possibly sample your ride? I want to do the comfort coilovers but given their unavailability I am considering the sports version. I also want to get the big brake kit and pads, and I may prioritize that over the coilovers. How much did Winn Autosport charge for the install? I am in Laguna Niguel so I’m interested in any good referrals. Thanks in advance!

Alright guys, I thought I posted an update on my build. Here they are and might I say damn comfortable for a sport coilover system. They are not set all the way low as the car sits on the ground and the settings are 10 on stiffness and 8 on rebound all around. Definitely an upgrade from OEM. The control arms were extremely easy to install as they are plug n' play and seem to be set to account for a lowered car.

All pictures except the one taken from afar are labeled.

Installed by Winn Autosports in Santa Ana, CA. Parts supplied by Mountain Pass Performance.


........AND THE BUILD continues

 

[MountainPass]

Yes, our dampers are digressive in both compression and rebound as nearly all modern sports dampers are. As kbecks13 said, the "knee" is simply a high-speed bleed that opens at a certain shaft velocity.

The OEM dampers are also digressive.

 

[RVallabh]

Hey there, how much was this all in as far as the install cost at this shop? Can I pick your brain some more regarding your experience, and possibly sample your ride? I want to do the comfort coilovers but given their unavailability I am considering the sports version. I also want to get the big brake kit and pads, and I may prioritize that over the coilovers. How much did Winn Autosport charge for the install? I am in Laguna Niguel so I’m interested in any good referrals. Thanks in advance!

DM me for specific information, I dont want to overload this thread. However, I am sponsored by Winn Autosports, so pricing will vary. What do u mean by sample my ride?

 

[BYE FOSL]

I would love to get a short ride in a dual motor 3 with MPP / KW Comfort Coilovers in Southern Cal. Thanks.

 

[mcbarnet007]

I have the UPP coilover installed. Let me know if anyone in the Bay Area want a test ride.

 

[mcbarnet007]

Also I highly recommend The Driveway in San Jose for alignment and C/O installation. Good price and Mike is meticulous when it comes to his craft.

 

[Hkbruin]

DM me for specific information, I dont want to overload this thread. However, I am sponsored by Winn Autosports, so pricing will vary. What do u mean by sample my ride?

Thanks for your reply! I wanted to see what the ride of your setup was like, as I wanted to compare to what I know with my car with the stock 19’s and my coworkers’ 18’s. I felt that his ride was much more supple and the road noise was quieter. If I am able to achieve this with the coilovers, I prefer to go this route than to switch to 18in. wheels and tires. As for the pricing, I wanted to know just how many things I’ll need to pawn off so I can acquire the upgrades I want without having to explain to th me wifey!

 

[kbecks13]

Felt this picture belonged on this thread

PS: Don't worry, the reservoir didn't stay in that position