Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Update: Charge PowerWall from Grid

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Just so I understand your situation; how may days last year did you experience where your solar was unable to charge your batteries to carry you through the peak time(s)? Will you really see much benefit grid-charging your Powerwalls?
One 8,760 line Excel spreadsheet later, I have your answer: On 51 days in calendar 2021, my solar production was less than the sum of my partial and peak consumption. So I would not have had enough stored to discharge throughout peak and partial peak periods. We are in sunny (but sometimes coastal overcast) Oakland Calif, so 13% shortfall days is to be expected, 51 out of 356. Over that year, our solar production was 97% of our consumption kWh.

The cost savings is probably less than $100 per year. But since my True-Up is in the $100 vicinity (by design), small improvements result in large percentage changes in the final bill.

To find that 51 day answer, I downloaded the SAM-8760 file, (365 X 24 lines of hourly consumption data) from my Enphase micro inverter system, as well as daily solar production for the year. An afternoon on Micro$oft's support site and a few inglorious kuldges got me a "pivot table" showing the count of 51 days to answer your question. A sunny day with low consumption might leave a high PW state of charge, so the exact kWh saved would need an even more complicated calculation. Hence the SWAG <$100 above.

Folks with less solar and/or higher consumptions (think heat pump winter heating) would see much more savings, of course.

SW
 
  • Informative
Reactions: BGbreeder
One 8,760 line Excel spreadsheet later, I have your answer: On 51 days in calendar 2021, my solar production was less than the sum of my partial and peak consumption. So I would not have had enough stored to discharge throughout peak and partial peak periods. We are in sunny (but sometimes coastal overcast) Oakland Calif, so 13% shortfall days is to be expected, 51 out of 356. Over that year, our solar production was 97% of our consumption kWh.

The cost savings is probably less than $100 per year. But since my True-Up is in the $100 vicinity (by design), small improvements result in large percentage changes in the final bill.

To find that 51 day answer, I downloaded the SAM-8760 file, (365 X 24 lines of hourly consumption data) from my Enphase micro inverter system, as well as daily solar production for the year. An afternoon on Micro$oft's support site and a few inglorious kuldges got me a "pivot table" showing the count of 51 days to answer your question. A sunny day with low consumption might leave a high PW state of charge, so the exact kWh saved would need an even more complicated calculation. Hence the SWAG <$100 above.

Folks with less solar and/or higher consumptions (think heat pump winter heating) would see much more savings, of course.

SW


Lol the irony about solar and ESS is that customers who rely on PG&E are usually clueless to their energy sources and uses (by design PG&E is a black box to pull off their BS). But once a homeowner installs solar and ESS, they routinely become experts to their home energy to find ways to conserve and optimize.

Instead of the idiotic recommendations from PG&E like turning down the brightness of your TV or doing family board-game-night... you've learned exactly how your home gets power and uses power.

But yeah, a home that heats with electricity instead of gas would really benefit from grid charging... but that does seem to bust the spirit of the grid-tied system. What's weird is PG&E also dislikes people who Over-build solar size to over-generate summer production. Since they want to kick those homes in the face with high per kW fixed cost fees.
 
But yeah, a home that heats with electricity instead of gas would really benefit from grid charging...
We use a heatpump to heat the house, and the electricity consumption outpaces solar production for 3 to 4 months in the year. Even though we have two Powerwalls, I don't try to time shift and leave the PWs at >90% SOC. That's because with NEM2, the NBCs are less than 10% of the electricity cost paid to PG&E, and on TOU-C the difference in peak vs non-peak rates (except in summer) is also around 6-7%. The round trip losses in the PWs appears to be at least 10%.
Probably the arithmetic would look different if we were on a EV rate.
 
... and on TOU-C the difference in peak vs non-peak rates (except in summer) is also around 6-7%.

You mean the differences are 6-7% "for now" ...

Folks should expect this TOU variance to increase next year after. PG&E is doing a 1 year "make-good calc" for those converting from Tiered to TOU-C. This way customers feel like TOU-C isn't so bad and has parity with tiered. But once that 1 year feel-good calc is paid out, PG&E will just widen the gap for TOU differential. And then, PG&E will blame the homeowner for doing the laundry during peak time or running ACs for their "super high energy bill".

The frog is boiled slowly; but it's being boiled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: h2ofun
You mean the differences are 6-7% "for now" ...

Folks should expect this TOU variance to increase next year after. PG&E is doing a 1 year "make-good calc" for those converting from Tiered to TOU-C. This way customers feel like TOU-C isn't so bad and has parity with tiered. But once that 1 year feel-good calc is paid out, PG&E will just widen the gap for TOU differential. And then, PG&E will blame the homeowner for doing the laundry during peak time or running ACs for their "super high energy bill".

The frog is boiled slowly; but it's being boiled.
The E-TOU-C rates as of 3/1/22 for summer are Peak $0.48814 and Off-Peak $0.42470 which is a 14.9% difference for OP-vs-P or 13.0% for P-vs-OP. In winter Peak is $0.39104 and Off-Peak is $0.37372 which is a 4.6% difference for OP-vs-P or 4.4% for P-vs-OP. So in winter the Powerwalls should be left in standby, but in summer there is still an advantage to use the Powerwalls during Peak.

If you are a net generator then even during the summer TOU price arbitrage isn't relevant as it doesn't matter if you have a credit of $100 or a credit of $1000 as it all goes to zero and your net exports are paid out without regard to TOE (time of export:)). My CCA, SVCE, is still paying out the net exports with TOU rates through the April 2022 true-up, but then they go to 200% of the PG&E Net Surplus Compensation, NSC, rates so my Powerwalls are going into standby at that point to maximize exports or maybe to 85-90% to keep them off of 100% just in case that it matters for degradation . If the Tesla Virtual Power Plant, VPP, makes a return then I would be joining in this time for the extra value.
 
If you read the UK threads
That is an interesting suggestion, but I'm having trouble finding what you are referring to. Could you send me links to those discussion.

I've been wondering what "logic" the PW uses when it has both grid and solar available. One person in Arizona and one in Australia both use third party companies to control their PW's, so they were not able to describe the native behavior.

SW
 
You mean the differences are 6-7% "for now" ...

Folks should expect this TOU variance to increase next year after. PG&E is doing a 1 year "make-good calc" for those converting from Tiered to TOU-C. This way customers feel like TOU-C isn't so bad and has parity with tiered. But once that 1 year feel-good calc is paid out, PG&E will just widen the gap for TOU differential. And then, PG&E will blame the homeowner for doing the laundry during peak time or running ACs for their "super high energy bill".

The frog is boiled slowly; but it's being boiled.
The frog is being boiled but not in the way you suggest. The winter rates effective October 1, 2020 had a differential of $0.02, and the differential is still 2 cents. But both peak and non-peak rate have increased by 7 cents in that 17 month period, or somewhat more than 20%. I don't see why they would increase the winter differential when they can get more revenue by raising both rates!
BTW, even TOU plans are actually tiered: there is a baseline rate and a higher rate for above baseline consumption.
 
That is an interesting suggestion, but I'm having trouble finding what you are referring to. Could you send me links to those discussion.

I've been wondering what "logic" the PW uses when it has both grid and solar available. One person in Arizona and one in Australia both use third party companies to control their PW's, so they were not able to describe the native behavior.

SW
Here:
Powerwalls in the UK


And toward the end of this thread:
Tesla: we need more control over our PowerWalls
 
The E-TOU-C rates as of 3/1/22 for summer are Peak $0.48814 and Off-Peak $0.42470 which is a 14.9% difference for OP-vs-P or 13.0% for P-vs-OP. In winter Peak is $0.39104 and Off-Peak is $0.37372 which is a 4.6% difference for OP-vs-P or 4.4% for P-vs-OP. So in winter the Powerwalls should be left in standby, but in summer there is still an advantage to use the Powerwalls during Peak.

If you are a net generator then even during the summer TOU price arbitrage isn't relevant as it doesn't matter if you have a credit of $100 or a credit of $1000 as it all goes to zero and your net exports are paid out without regard to TOE (time of export:)). My CCA, SVCE, is still paying out the net exports with TOU rates through the April 2022 true-up, but then they go to 200% of the PG&E Net Surplus Compensation, NSC, rates so my Powerwalls are going into standby at that point to maximize exports or maybe to 85-90% to keep them off of 100% just in case that it matters for degradation . If the Tesla Virtual Power Plant, VPP, makes a return then I would be joining in this time for the extra value.
This is a great analysis and perspective. I think it is spot on. It gives customers with batteries a much better posItin with respect to (the inevitable) PG&E service disruptions. It also increases grid stress for PG&E during winter months by not time shifting loads. Whether that changes pricing behavior on their part...

All the best,

BG
 
The E-TOU-C rates as of 3/1/22 for summer are Peak $0.48814 and Off-Peak $0.42470 which is a 14.9% difference for OP-vs-P or 13.0% for P-vs-OP. In winter Peak is $0.39104 and Off-Peak is $0.37372 which is a 4.6% difference for OP-vs-P or 4.4% for P-vs-OP. So in winter the Powerwalls should be left in standby, but in summer there is still an advantage to use the Powerwalls during Peak.

If you are a net generator then even during the summer TOU price arbitrage isn't relevant as it doesn't matter if you have a credit of $100 or a credit of $1000 as it all goes to zero and your net exports are paid out without regard to TOE (time of export:)). My CCA, SVCE, is still paying out the net exports with TOU rates through the April 2022 true-up, but then they go to 200% of the PG&E Net Surplus Compensation, NSC, rates so my Powerwalls are going into standby at that point to maximize exports or maybe to 85-90% to keep them off of 100% just in case that it matters for degradation . If the Tesla Virtual Power Plant, VPP, makes a return then I would be joining in this time for the extra value.
I'm on EV2A and am a net generator. I'm trying to find the sweet spot between being a net generator, Powerwall wear, reserve capacity for power outages, and hands-off settings. Currently, I'm leaving my 2 Powerwalls at 50% reserve year-round with Peak set at 4pm-9pm. I'm also getting a 3rd Powerwall (long story) and am probably going to set my reserve 60% and evaluate from there.
 
Last edited:
I'm on EV2A and am a net generator. I'm trying to find the sweet spot between being a net generator, Powerwall wear, reserve capacity for power outages, and hands-off settings. Currently, I'm leaving my 2 Powerwalls at 50% reserve year-round with Peak set at 4pm-9pm. I'm also getting a 3rd Powerwall (long story) and am probably going to set my reserve 60% and evaluate from there.
I put mine at 10%.
 
  • Like
Reactions: buckets0fun
Yep.
27 events last year, longest 3days.
Six powerwalls, plenty of solar. Zero reason the house would drain 6 down enough to even think of stressing, Winter included.
Solar doesn't help much when your panels are covered with snow. I got to day 3 of a 5 day outage last winter before I had to start my generator (and I was one of the lucky ones that got power back after 5 days). It was nice to have those 2 days without running a generator.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BGbreeder
Solar doesn't help much when your panels are covered with snow. I got to day 3 of a 5 day outage last winter before I had to start my generator (and I was one of the lucky ones that got power back after 5 days). It was nice to have those 2 days without running a generator.
no snow here duder.
Also, solar roof self clears snow. 🤷🏿‍♂️
Sounds like you need an upgrade to your solar. 😉
 
An important, if somewhat tardy, update to this thread. Please see the thread linked below for further discussion.

In April of 2022, Tesla released new features for existing PowerWalls which include grid charging and time-shifting solar production.

These are discussed in detail in this thread: New Powerwall Advanced Options [Toggles for charging from and discharging to grid from powerwalls]

A quick summary. In current versions of the Tesla App, the Settings, PowerWall page may include settings for these features. I say "may include" because availability of the features depends on one's utility rules and PW installation. In addition, at least early on, some owners had to request Tesla Energy Support to enable the features or get explanations of why they were not available to certain owners.

The two biggest new features are:

Grid Charging, which can be set to No or to Yes. This was the original topic of this thread.​
Energy Exports, which can be set to Solar or to Everything. This was a big surprise, and allows the PW to discharge to the grid during peak pricing periods, down to the reserve setting. Depending on ones utility rules and rate plan and system sizing, this may increase the NEM economic reward for exporting solar production.​

Tesla's documentation on these is here: Powerwall Modes | Tesla Support

Again, please see the the discussion thread linked above.

SW
 
Status
Not open for further replies.