Update: Model X has a single charger, but only 48A capable

[Merrill]

I think that we fail to realize that by driving an all electric car there will be some compromises that we need to make. There are so many positives that in my mind override the negatives. Just keep this in mind when you make your decision to buy a BEV, I purchased the Model S without knowing how many superchargers would be built and there where not many when I purchased. This does not mean that I discount the complaints about no dual chargers in the Model X, but you will never please everyone.

 

[dsm363]

I hope this is a temporary issue and an 80A single charger (if that's possible) will be offered for sale at some point.

 

[ohmman]

I think that we fail to realize that by driving an all electric car there will be some compromises that we need to make.

With all due respect to you, Merrill, I disagree pretty strongly with this statement. The MS doesn't have this compromise, so it negates the argument. The contentious compromises on the MX are things that are unrelated to its EVness - folding or removable second row and a single charger. The MS offers both of these things. Tesla's communication led us all to believe that we'd have a lot of usable space in the back, and, more recently, that we'd have 72A worth of charging ability. And if they hadn't said anything about charging, everyone would have assumed we'd have the same potential as with the MS.

The compromises we need to take have more to do with decisions that Tesla has made in the design of this vehicle. You're right that we don't have any comparable options, so in order to drive this particular EV, we will indeed need to compromise. I just find it all pretty unnecessary and perplexing.

 

[FlasherZ]

I suspect they made the decision because they had decided to go with a a single charger and in the end couldn't source higher amperage chargers (supplier let them down). 48 amps is suspiciously close to 40 amps. It is possible you could use the 40 amp charger and tweak a few components here and there and make it a 48 amp charger. Just a wild assed guess...

The existing Model S chargers are actually used at 48A in the superchargers, so it seems pretty reasonable as a possibility.

 

[FlasherZ]

It gets hot enough with the wire gauge it's got with 40A. I wouldn't want to add any more amps, plus you'd have to hack on some 60A Hubble connector to make it work. There is no 14-70 outlet.

We're talking about the charger, not the UMC... HPWC delivers the higher current for charging..

EDIT: removed strange quote from Tapatalk

 

[Merrill]

With all due respect to you, Merrill, I disagree pretty strongly with this statement. The MS doesn't have this compromise, so it negates the argument. The contentious compromises on the MX are things that are unrelated to its EVness - folding or removable second row and a single charger. The MS offers both of these things. Tesla's communication led us all to believe that we'd have a lot of usable space in the back, and, more recently, that we'd have 72A worth of charging ability. And if they hadn't said anything about charging, everyone would have assumed we'd have the same potential as with the MS.

The compromises we need to take have more to do with decisions that Tesla has made in the design of this vehicle. You're right that we don't have any comparable options, so in order to drive this particular EV, we will indeed need to compromise. I just find it all pretty unnecessary and perplexing.

No worries, I understand you concerns but again it gets back to the individual and their wants and needs. You will find lots of people out there that will not consider the Model S for various reasons.

 

[O-G]

As I mentioned, it's a problem for me essentially every weekend. Maybe I am in the 1%, although I doubt it, but it's definitely an issue that has the potential of making the MX impractical. I'm hoping someone can give me some real life info before I pull the plug. (If there is another thread for this, point me there but it all relates to the new charging.)

Almost every weekend, I go to a second home. I drive 100-150 miles during the day for work. I come home around 2:00, spend an hour packing up and get on the road by 3:00. (If I don't make 3:00, my 2 hour drive becalmes a 3 hour drive with traffic.) 100-110 miles to destination assuming no side trips. Total trip 200-260 miles. No supercharger options.

Is this realistic in the MX? Sig P90D with ludicrous mode, 22" wheels. Approximately 250 rated range. How much does stop and go traffic effect the range? What about winter, using heat on the way? I'm not going over mountain passes but what about a windy day? 6 people with luggage versus 2? What about battery degradation? Maybe it works when it's brand new but 3 years from now? I think that if I have a 100 mile work day, I'm okay but if I have a 150 mile work day, I'm in trouble. So now I start adjusting my work activities to accommodate the range of the car? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I understand I'm new, don't own a MS. Maybe you get over the range anxiety but I can't see myself making that drive every weekend, sweating if I'll make the last 10 miles. Plus, once there, there's no driving the 10 miles each way into town to pick something up or grab a bite at a restaurant. I'll be at zero miles, have to wait until morning. I was counting on being able to gain 50 miles in the hour packing the car, then charge quickly after arriving just to get me over these critical long days. Now I guess we double that time.

I'm looking for some sincere helpful thoughts and opinions, hopefully from some of you that have experience with the the MS. This is a big decision and a huge disappointment if I back out. I don't even know that I can, it may be too late. I will find out next week.

(I'm not even mentioning the destination charging issues, charging where there aren't superchargers, etc. Those issues have been brought up by others. They are real and will have some effect. I'm taking that into consideration but it's not an every week issue like my normal drive.)

 

[AlMc]

No worries, I understand you concerns but again it gets back to the individual and their wants and needs. You will find lots of people out there that will not consider the Model S for various reasons.

To follow up on Ohman's point. This is actually more of a 'miss' than the seating. Let's say that TM went for this being more about moving people than moving people and 'things' (the U in SUV). Sure, daily commuting and school drop offs will not be affected but how about family vacations and weekend soccer tournaments. These are impacted by slower charging at places where SCs are not ubiquitous. A dual charger S is now a better family mover than the X in these situations

 

[scottf200]

I'm looking for some sincere helpful thoughts and opinions, hopefully from some of you that have experience with the the MS. This is a big decision and a huge disappointment if I back out. I don't even know that I can, it may be too late. I will find out next week.

Does the CHAdeMO adapter at ~130 MPH help anywhere along your day (Friday lunch)?
Pack the night before and spend 1/2 hr at a CHAdeMO charger before you leave by 3pm?

My post has nothing to do with whether he should have to do this because of the alleged Tesla decision. Just trying to help give options.

 

[cantdecide]

As I mentioned, it's a problem for me essentially every weekend. Maybe I am in the 1%, although I doubt it, but it's definitely an issue that has the potential of making the MX impractical. I'm hoping someone can give me some real life info before I pull the plug. (If there is another thread for this, point me there but it all relates to the new charging.)

Almost every weekend, I go to a second home. I drive 100-150 miles during the day for work. I come home around 2:00, spend an hour packing up and get on the road by 3:00. (If I don't make 3:00, my 2 hour drive becalmes a 3 hour drive with traffic.) 100-110 miles to destination assuming no side trips. Total trip 200-260 miles. No supercharger options.

Is this realistic in the MX? Sig P90D with ludicrous mode, 22" wheels. Approximately 250 rated range. How much does stop and go traffic effect the range? What about winter, using heat on the way? I'm not going over mountain passes but what about a windy day? 6 people with luggage versus 2? What about battery degradation? Maybe it works when it's brand new but 3 years from now? I think that if I have a 100 mile work day, I'm okay but if I have a 150 mile work day, I'm in trouble. So now I start adjusting my work activities to accommodate the range of the car? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I understand I'm new, don't own a MS. Maybe you get over the range anxiety but I can't see myself making that drive every weekend, sweating if I'll make the last 10 miles. Plus, once there, there's no driving the 10 miles each way into town to pick something up or grab a bite at a restaurant. I'll be at zero miles, have to wait until morning. I was counting on being able to gain 50 miles in the hour packing the car, then charge quickly after arriving just to get me over these critical long days. Now I guess we double that time.

I'm looking for some sincere helpful thoughts and opinions, hopefully from some of you that have experience with the the MS. This is a big decision and a huge disappointment if I back out. I don't even know that I can, it may be too late. I will find out next week.

(I'm not even mentioning the destination charging issues, charging where there aren't superchargers, etc. Those issues have been brought up by others. They are real and will have some effect. I'm taking that into consideration but it's not an every week issue like my normal drive.)

In my world of friends etcetera you are in the 1% but that is because I live within 40 miles of 5 superchargers and so do my friends. Similarly that is a very long commute among my friends so for me who can charge at work and use supercharging for trips even 110 volts is fine for me at home. I can certainly see Tesla classifying your use case is rare among current owners and why they are trying to use superchargers as a solution.

However, it is your use case!

If you can arrange a 14-50 at work then you are fine. If they put superchargers in you are fine. If you have a second car to drive to work one day a week (eg used volt) you are fine. Otherwise the model x might not be the car for you right now unless you are willing to spend money on a DC charger for home. Even so being able to charge quickly at home will only make a 30 mile difference.

Winter will certainly decrease your range depending on just how cold. Several years might also knock off 5%. Traveling slowly increases range.

 

[Chris TX]

We're talking about the charger, not the UMC... HPWC delivers the higher current for charging...

The person I was responding to was suggesting modifications to the 40A charger (UMC)

 

[andrewket]

Here is another reason the current (amps) limitation matters.

Many EVSEs at commercial installations are using two phases from a three phase source. The result is instead of 240V, you get 208V. But the car is current limited, not power limited, so you'll get 208V and 48A on the X. I'm plugged into a 14-50 right now that is delivering 208V. Net result is 24 mi/hr on an S.

Edit: and that's rated. In the winter, that's closer to 19 mi/hr.

 

[andrewket]

The existing Model S chargers are actually used at 48A in the superchargers, so it seems pretty reasonable as a possibility.

So maybe a second charger option will become available as an accessory. If that's the case, then great. All tesla has to do is communicate that to all of us. Even if it won't be available for a few months, at least we know what the options are and if we will be making a compromise on the X.

I wonder where the charger is located on the X and how difficult it would be to take a look to see if there is space.

 

[yobigd20]

Here is another reason the current (amps) limitation matters.

Many EVSEs at commercial installations are using two phases from a three phase source. The result is instead of 240V, you get 208V. But the car is current limited, not watts.. So you'll get 208V and 48A on the X. I'm plugged into a 14-50 right now that is delivering 208V. Net result is 24 mi/hr on an S.

Yea I hate this. I've come across this so many times and it annoys me that it charges so much slower.

 

[Cosmacelf]

So maybe a second charger option will become available as an accessory. If that's the case, then great. All tesla has to do is communicate that to all of us. Even if it won't be available for a few months, at least we know what the options are and if we will be making a compromise on the X.

I wonder where the charger is located on the X and how difficult it would be to take a look to see if there is space.

It is more than space. The wires have to be beefier, the software has to change. But yeah, I would pay for an option upgrade...

 

[tom66]

Yea I hate this. I've come across this so many times and it annoys me that it charges so much slower.

Maybe since the charger is 12kW, Tesla will allow a higher current limit to be set at lower input voltages (e.g. 55A limit at 208V)

 

[Chris TX]

Maybe since the charger is 12kW, Tesla will allow a higher current limit to be set at lower input voltages (e.g. 55A limit at 208V)

When you raise the amps like that, you need thicker copper.

 

[Matt_D]

For overnight 48A is plenty. There are times on trips where maybe a stop at a mall or service center that doesn't have Super Chargers where 80A is still very useful. It sounds like not not maybe people opted for the twin chargers so they dropped it. 72A rumor didn't sound that bad but 48A with no option to upgrade is less desirable.

I would agree. I would also offer up something to think about: the lack of high speed charging (if this is true, and again, we need Tesla to confirm directly one way or the other) will pose a problem for the overall utility vehicle in the future. As EVs (including Tesla vehicles, in this case) become increasingly popular (particularly plug-in hybrids) being able to charge faster will become increasingly desirable. No one wants to see one vehicle hog a charger overnight or all day when two or three vehicles could have been able to charge in the same unit of time.

Even for destination charging it's useful. As an example, take North Lake Tahoe's Hyatt -- when I last visited the Valets were all too experienced in moving the EVs in and out of the charging spots to help maximize utilization (and insure everyone got charged.)

Higher current public charging, in addition to faster L3 (and in Tesla's case, supercharging) options will be a critical part of the EV landscape. Not being able to take advantage of these capabilities in any vehicle strikes me as false economy (and quite myopic.)

 

[Mark Z]

The dilemma of 40/80 makes this thread one of the most interesting at TMC. Every purchaser of Model S gets only 40 from the factory and must wait a month to schedule an upgrade to 80. Tesla Accessories and Charging Adapters Dual Charger with Installation

For now, a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter can help as it did for me in Albuquerque and OKC before Superchargers came online. This situation will continue to be fluid, changing monthly as new stations come on line. When Tesla Motors offers a CCS (Combined Charging Standard or J1772 Combo) adapter, we can connect to DC stations that do not have a CHAdeMO option. Many stations offer both or all three: terra-53-cjg-dc-charging-station-web82442be4c1f463c09537ff0000433538.jpg

However, in the long run. The need to return to a gas fueled vehicle for limited and specific road trips has always been a possibility in the future. Even with 80 amp charge capability in every Tesla, we could encounter extra wait times due to crowding as some have mentioned. Elon said it best when Supercharging was first announced, it is for a leisurely paced road trip.

IMHO, you must plan for extra time. You cannot be on a tight schedule and expect 100% satisfaction. Even Costco has long lines for bargain priced fuel. There will be disappointments in whatever we purchase. The new Apple TV released yesterday does not have Podcasts, a feature on all three previous versions. (Solution: use the older model or stream from the iPhone.) Every day can be a frustration or adventure, depending on your point of view.

Think positive, developing alternative solutions as necessary. You can choose to be happy in every circumstance. All it takes is an attitude adjustment or an alternative solution. The solution may be to drive a gasoline SUV on occasion. That is what I plan to do if my Model X is not delivered in November. Sure it will cost more, but I will get to my destination faster! Whatever you drive, drive safe and take frequent rest stop breaks. Happy electric motoring to all!

 

[FlasherZ]

The person I was responding to was suggesting modifications to the 40A charger (UMC)

The UMC is Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) and is not a charger. The charger is on board the vehicle.

Cosmacelf was not talking of the UMC, but rather the actual onboard charger:

I suspect they made the decision because they had decided to go with a a single charger and in the end couldn't source higher amperage chargers (supplier let them down). 48 amps is suspiciously close to 40 amps. It is possible you could use the 40 amp charger and tweak a few components here and there and make it a 48 amp charger. Just a wild assed guess...

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe since the charger is 12kW, Tesla will allow a higher current limit to be set at lower input voltages (e.g. 55A limit at 208V)

The chargers are not power-limited, but current-limited. So the power output is variable (up to a certain point) for a fixed current. Chris TX is right in that current represents the size of wiring and traces are that are required.

12 kW is derived @ 250V. For Europe (generally 230V RMS), it'll be 11 kW. For those areas still using 220V, it'll e 10.5 kW. And for those with only 208V, it'll be 10 kW.