Update: Model X has a single charger, but only 48A capable

[Mark Z]

Not everyone lives in California. That's why I said the Tesla engineers really need to get out more.

And NRG EV Services needs to install more EVgo CHAdeMO in Texas! :smile:

I repeatedly requested to NRG EVgo that Amarillo needed a DC charge location when Tesla had not started the Supercharger. Looks like Tesla Motors will finish before the Houston firm installs any stations in the Panhandle. Electric Vehicle Charging Stations | Find eVgo Electric Car Chargers

 

[TexasEV]

And NRG EV Services needs to install more EVgo CHAdeMO in Texas! :smile:

I repeatedly requested to NRG EVgo that Amarillo needed a DC charge location when Tesla had not started the Supercharger. Looks like Tesla Motors will finish before the Houston firm installs any stations in the Panhandle. Electric Vehicle Charging Stations | Find eVgo Electric Car Chargers

The reason NRG installed so many charging stations in California was it was part of the settlement of lawsuit by the state about overcharging for electricity years ago. Now NRG is spinning off its money-losing charging business. Today's WSJ has an article about the spinoff.

 

[andrewket]

I will agree with your WAG and raise you my WAG -- they'll reintroduce the 72A within a year and we'll have a new thread in 6 months with a lot of contentious discussion.

Months. 2-3 max.

 

[FlasherZ]

Should I go ahead and just start the "A-charger" thread right now?

(ref: "A-pack")

 

[goneskiian]

Should I go ahead and just start the "A-charger" thread right now?

(ref: "A-pack")

Yup. Fire it up! ;-)

 

[andrewket]

Should I go ahead and just start the "A-charger" thread right now?

(ref: "A-pack")

yes. it's going to be a sig and early production tax, I suspect.

 

[yobigd20]

yes. it's going to be a sig and early production tax, I suspect.

Exactly...

 

[Mark Z]

...A simple test with Model S can help check these charge rates...

32 miles of charge per hour is what occurred with the limit set at 48 amps with Model S. Voltage was at 235, so there is a possibility of a slight increase at 240.

One benefit of the 48 rate are the cooler wire temperatures. The 100 amp circuit breaker installation with 80 amp maximum runs very warm at 100%. Hardly any heat generated at 48 amps.

 

[scottf200]

yes. it's going to be a sig and early production tax, I suspect.

I'm OK with that. I'll be just using 14-50s at home and visiting relatives (and at campgrounds if I get in a tough spot). Otherwise superchargers. Destinations chargers are probably not going to work if they are all at much higher expensive hotels and there will be LEAFs/Volts/etc charging there with Tesla_plugs to J1772 hacked adapters or future gluttony Model IIIs or a future of Model S/Xs. 50amps (40) will work OK.

 

[FlasherZ]

32 miles of charge per hour is what occurred with the limit set at 48 amps with Model S. Voltage was at 235, so there is a possibility of a slight increase at 240.

One benefit of the 48 rate are the cooler wire temperatures. The 100 amp circuit breaker installation with 80 amp maximum runs very warm at 100%. Hardly any heat generated at 48 amps.

You could always calculate the amount and be pretty close, since we know the rated miles for Model X now. It's just a simple proportion. (Yes, I'm making assumptions that Model X's charger is the same efficiency as the Model S charger, which is more likely now at 48A... and the precision of rMPH isn't all that great, since we have only integers there.)

If I recall correctly, S P90D is 268 miles? and if X P90D is 250 miles, then there's a 6.7% Model X penalty. 32 rMPH for Model S would be right at 30 rMPH for Model X when adjusting for higher Wh/mile.

 

[FlatSix911]

You could always calculate the amount and be pretty close, since we know the rated miles for Model X now. It's just a simple proportion.
(Yes, I'm making assumptions that Model X's charger is the same efficiency as the Model S charger, which is more likely now at 48A... and the precision of rMPH isn't all that great, since we have only integers there.)

If I recall correctly, S P90D is 268 miles? and if X P90D is 250 miles, then there's a 6.7% Model X penalty. 32 rMPH for Model S would be right at 30 rMPH for Model X when adjusting for higher Wh/mile.

I agree with your calculation ... 30mph charging for the Model X is right on the money.

 

[andrewket]

That means if i drive anymore than 120 miles during the summer, or 90 during the winter, that I cannot fully charge an X in my 4 hour TOU window. This happens pretty much every weekend.

 

[NigelM]

This is one of those things that it won't affect the vast majority of owners. But for those that it does it is a big deal and an unnecessary compromise if those owners are willing to pay extra for a bigger onboard charger. I hope they offer that 72A charger as an optional service center upgrade down the road at least.

I think you're right, but that's based on Model S as a platform. The X is designed to tow, and the impact of that on range is unknown but not expected to be minimal; so the potential downside here is that charging times could increase dramatically when hauling. The question about 'vast majority of owners' changes to 'how many people will be towing and how often?'.

 

[JanoSicek]

What's UP with the 4 hours of cheap electricity? Here in Switzerland I get 13 hours of lower tariff electricity daily, plus like 40 hours nonstop on the weekend.
For me this is absolutely not an issue. Similar situation in many european countries I assume. 11kW charger is all we need.

 

[O-G]

What's UP with the 4 hours of cheap electricity? Here in Switzerland I get 13 hours of lower tariff electricity daily, plus like 40 hours nonstop on the weekend.
For me this is absolutely not an issue. Similar situation in many european countries I assume. 11kW charger is all we need.

Which is why the 72amp, (really the 80 amp available in the MS), should be an option. It is a huge issue to me. I can see once or twice a week that it will potentially be a problem. Many if not all weekends will be a problem. I'm thinking I will need a second vehicle to drive for work on Friday so that when I come home from work, the MX can handle the trip for the weekend.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The only reason I can think of for Tesla putting a 48A charger in the Model X rather than 72 or 80A, with no option for dual chargers, is they believe their own marketing hype about the supercharger network. It just makes no sense that Tesla's newest model can't take full advantage of high amp level 2 charging, including some of Tesla's own destination charging. If my theory is true, they need to give the engineers more time off so they can travel outside of California.

IMO the only logical explanation is the same as non-folding seats: Initial Model X are compromised due to manufacturing, design and supply issues. Tesla has decided to make certain tradeoffs to lessen any further delays in the launch. This is supported by leaks and the haphazard manner Tesla seems to change things in the last minute.

While it is easy to believe going for a single charger - like in Founders - is a design decision, influenced by space and availability of higher powered single chargers, going for 72A, maybe 60A originally... But there is no such logic in Tesla now suddenly backtracking to 48A, certainly they suddenly didn't think this is better for our market, having already demonstrated 72A and configured cars...

The logical reason is there is a problem of supply or unforeseen design issues with the 72A charger that have finally come to a head and thus initial Model X ships in a compromised form. I fully expect a higher powered charger to make it into slightly later production.

 

[JanoSicek]

If you have 90kW model and you charge at 12kW at cheap rate, you'll get 48kWh.
Assuming almost empty battery, you still need to get 32kWh at more expensive rate. In my country the difference is 9 cents per kWh. Therefore the difference is $2.88 per day.
Assuming you do this every working day, of which there is approx. 250, you will spend $720 on the more expensive electricity per year. All that while driving 62500 miles per year (!)

Is it worth installing a second charger option at few thousand $ and stronger wiring in the garage? Are you really driving 62500 per year?
If you need full charge once a week, then the extra cost is $144. If the second charger is $2000, you would need 14 years to get benefit.

 

[andrewket]

Delete

 

[AnOutsider]

If you have 90kW model and you charge at 12kW at cheap rate, you'll get 48kWh.
Assuming almost empty battery, you still need to get 32kWh at more expensive rate. In my country the difference is 9 cents per kWh. Therefore the difference is $2.88 per day.
Assuming you do this every working day, of which there is approx. 250, you will spend $720 on the more expensive electricity per year. All that while driving 62500 miles per year (!)

Is it worth installing a second charger option at few thousand $ and stronger wiring in the garage? Are you really driving 62500 per year?
If you need full charge once a week, then the extra cost is $144. If the second charger is $2000, you would need 14 years to get benefit.

I cant speak for anyone else, but I remember arguments like these about getting the 85 vs 60 vs 40 battery packs in the early days. "how often do you really need to go x miles? Is it worth the extra cost and weight the times you don't?"

Yes. It's not about crunching numbers on paper. It's about knowing it's there when I need it (and I most certainly have).

 

[CmdrThor]

I cant speak for anyone else, but I remember arguments like these about getting the 85 vs 60 vs 40 battery packs in the early days. "how often do you really need to go x miles? Is it worth the extra cost and weight the times you don't?"

Yes. It's not about crunching numbers on paper. It's about knowing it's there when I need it (and I most certainly have).

There's two difference arguments for faster charging. One is arriving home with low charge and needing to quickly recharge before going back out for the day. The other is you have plenty of time to charge overnight but you want charging to happen during your off-peak period. I believe JanoSicek's point was that if your need is only for the off-peak charging window, it may not be worth the cost of the faster charger. Literally spending dollars to save pennies.

Now if you have a 200 mile roundtrip commute and then want to go out on the town in the evening, even if that's only a few times a year, that is a different story.