Update to the Supercharger network policies

[tfboy]

I really have mixed thoughts about this change. I live in the UK and so my first comment would be that a blanket change isn't really adapted to a massively varying worldwide market.

I for one am actually disappointed with this change. Ever since I've been following Tesla, the "free supercharger for life" was a massively compelling argument and USP. It's (or soon will be "was") an core underlying identity trait that made Tesla different. They are still the only people who offer this kind of freedom. Wasn't it apple that branded the "Think different" statement? It's these kind of USPs that have made us passionate, devout evangelists.

When I first saw that, it nearly brought a tear to my eye. Yes, I'm an emotional wreck at times but felt so strongly about it, it's what sold me the concept. It's not the fact I'm saving a few pounds / dollars each top-up.

Seeing the majority of people on TMC commenting that it's a good idea as it will purge local owners from pillaging, I'm utterly amazed that people don't value their time more than the electricity savings made by free SC use.

Also, for those that believe this will "fix" the overcrowding and wait times, unfortunately, I find that hard to believe. You have people that rely on SC as they cannot charge at home / work. IMO, the queueing issue has become increasingly frequent not because of the free SC facility abuse but because the ratio of cars/supercharger has increased massively. Whether you have to pay or not won't stop people from using SC if they don't have other options. Those that rely SCs for long distance travel can no longer "leave their wallet at home" as Elon put it.

I'm more than happy for the Model 3 to have a PAYG SC usage as I had always seen the 3 as a smaller family car, just a step of from a Leaf / Zoe which might not be considered as the ultimate cross-country cruiser. My gripe is with Model S and X. It is the ultimate road trip car and the convenience and freedom of Supercharging has such immense pulling power that massively overcomes what it costs in electricity.

I recall Tesla quoting their 3G/4G data bill was higher than the SC electricity usage although I don't know if that was worldwide or region-specific. Also, Tesla have said they aren't to make SC electricity a source of profit.

Now what I think is really required is a continued development of SC sites and number of stalls. With sufficient charging stations, queueing is reduced. This would bring on the question of how do you finance it?

Well, the way I would tackle the problem is to bring back a Supercharging for life as a one-off costed option with the car. As we know, it was $2k with the 60kWh initially which was then rolled into new cars so they came with it. My suggestion: bring it back, but bring it back at a cost. Make that cost higher, say $5k as a one-off payment up front to enable unlimited use. People would have to do an insame amount of mileage for Tesla to lose out on the cost of electricity. Hey, they could even make it cheaper at purchase time and more expensive to enable afterwards, like AP functionality.

For those that don't want it, fine, it's great to have a PAYG model. Also, keep the free 400kWh/year as a taster for new Tesla owners. If they do a lot of miles, they might decide paying for an upgrade is worth it to them. However, I suspect as long as Tesla make the funding process an easy one online with automatic top-ups, then it keeps things simple.

If they make the the "3SC4L" (free supercharging for life) a relatively expensive option, it gives people the choice to go for it. For those that do, Tesla get an immediate $5k cash injection that can finance further development of the SC network. If a twin SC stall costs $50k in hardware, then every 10 Tesla cars sold pays for a new twin SC install...

Final point: if they do keep 3SC4L as an option, selling the dream as it was in the early days is an even more powerful differentiator to other EVs coming thick and fast to the market.

 

[JRP3]

It is the ultimate road trip car and the convenience and freedom of Supercharging has such immense pulling power that massively overcomes what it costs in electricity.

Sounds like the cost of Supercharging isn't an issue.

 

[brkaus]

I really have mixed thoughts about this change. I live in the UK and so my first comment would be that a blanket change isn't really adapted to a massively varying worldwide market.

I for one am actually disappointed with this change. Ever since I've been following Tesla, the "free supercharger for life" was a massively compelling argument and USP. It's (or soon will be "was") an core underlying identity trait that made Tesla different. They are still the only people who offer this kind of freedom. Wasn't it apple that branded the "Think different" statement? It's these kind of USPs that have made us passionate, devout evangelists.

When I first saw that, it nearly brought a tear to my eye. Yes, I'm an emotional wreck at times but felt so strongly about it, it's what sold me the concept. It's not the fact I'm saving a few pounds / dollars each top-up.

Seeing the majority of people on TMC commenting that it's a good idea as it will purge local owners from pillaging, I'm utterly amazed that people don't value their time more than the electricity savings made by free SC use.

Also, for those that believe this will "fix" the overcrowding and wait times, unfortunately, I find that hard to believe. You have people that rely on SC as they cannot charge at home / work. IMO, the queueing issue has become increasingly frequent not because of the free SC facility abuse but because the ratio of cars/supercharger has increased massively. Whether you have to pay or not won't stop people from using SC if they don't have other options. Those that rely SCs for long distance travel can no longer "leave their wallet at home" as Elon put it.

I'm more than happy for the Model 3 to have a PAYG SC usage as I had always seen the 3 as a smaller family car, just a step of from a Leaf / Zoe which might not be considered as the ultimate cross-country cruiser. My gripe is with Model S and X. It is the ultimate road trip car and the convenience and freedom of Supercharging has such immense pulling power that massively overcomes what it costs in electricity.

I recall Tesla quoting their 3G/4G data bill was higher than the SC electricity usage although I don't know if that was worldwide or region-specific. Also, Tesla have said they aren't to make SC electricity a source of profit.

Now what I think is really required is a continued development of SC sites and number of stalls. With sufficient charging stations, queueing is reduced. This would bring on the question of how do you finance it?

Well, the way I would tackle the problem is to bring back a Supercharging for life as a one-off costed option with the car. As we know, it was $2k with the 60kWh initially which was then rolled into new cars so they came with it. My suggestion: bring it back, but bring it back at a cost. Make that cost higher, say $5k as a one-off payment up front to enable unlimited use. People would have to do an insame amount of mileage for Tesla to lose out on the cost of electricity. Hey, they could even make it cheaper at purchase time and more expensive to enable afterwards, like AP functionality.

For those that don't want it, fine, it's great to have a PAYG model. Also, keep the free 400kWh/year as a taster for new Tesla owners. If they do a lot of miles, they might decide paying for an upgrade is worth it to them. However, I suspect as long as Tesla make the funding process an easy one online with automatic top-ups, then it keeps things simple.

If they make the the "3SC4L" (free supercharging for life) a relatively expensive option, it gives people the choice to go for it. For those that do, Tesla get an immediate $5k cash injection that can finance further development of the SC network. If a twin SC stall costs $50k in hardware, then every 10 Tesla cars sold pays for a new twin SC install...

Final point: if they do keep 3SC4L as an option, selling the dream as it was in the early days is an even more powerful differentiator to other EVs coming thick and fast to the market.

Make it a high priced option and then the ones that take it are the ones that don't value their time. They will try harder to "earn" their investment back. Even worse, they will be entitled to it. (*)

Just price it fairly on a per use basis. Fair price is critical to reduce the pain of stopping to charge. But it doesn't have to be free.


* yes, there are some cars that will be wrecked, sold to someone who doesn't care, etc.

 

[Model 3]

Those that rely SCs for long distance travel can no longer "leave their wallet at home" as Elon put it.

Well, we do not yet know how this payment in a "pay-as-you-go" will be, but everything indicate that you will have to register your debit/credit-card in the MyTesla page, and it will be drawn from there automatic. If so, you may still leave your wallet at home

 

[stopcrazypp]

I really have mixed thoughts about this change. I live in the UK and so my first comment would be that a blanket change isn't really adapted to a massively varying worldwide market.

I for one am actually disappointed with this change. Ever since I've been following Tesla, the "free supercharger for life" was a massively compelling argument and USP. It's (or soon will be "was") an core underlying identity trait that made Tesla different. They are still the only people who offer this kind of freedom. Wasn't it apple that branded the "Think different" statement? It's these kind of USPs that have made us passionate, devout evangelists.

When I first saw that, it nearly brought a tear to my eye. Yes, I'm an emotional wreck at times but felt so strongly about it, it's what sold me the concept. It's not the fact I'm saving a few pounds / dollars each top-up.

Seeing the majority of people on TMC commenting that it's a good idea as it will purge local owners from pillaging, I'm utterly amazed that people don't value their time more than the electricity savings made by free SC use.

Also, for those that believe this will "fix" the overcrowding and wait times, unfortunately, I find that hard to believe. You have people that rely on SC as they cannot charge at home / work. IMO, the queueing issue has become increasingly frequent not because of the free SC facility abuse but because the ratio of cars/supercharger has increased massively. Whether you have to pay or not won't stop people from using SC if they don't have other options. Those that rely SCs for long distance travel can no longer "leave their wallet at home" as Elon put it.

I'm more than happy for the Model 3 to have a PAYG SC usage as I had always seen the 3 as a smaller family car, just a step of from a Leaf / Zoe which might not be considered as the ultimate cross-country cruiser. My gripe is with Model S and X. It is the ultimate road trip car and the convenience and freedom of Supercharging has such immense pulling power that massively overcomes what it costs in electricity.

I recall Tesla quoting their 3G/4G data bill was higher than the SC electricity usage although I don't know if that was worldwide or region-specific. Also, Tesla have said they aren't to make SC electricity a source of profit.

Now what I think is really required is a continued development of SC sites and number of stalls. With sufficient charging stations, queueing is reduced. This would bring on the question of how do you finance it?

Well, the way I would tackle the problem is to bring back a Supercharging for life as a one-off costed option with the car. As we know, it was $2k with the 60kWh initially which was then rolled into new cars so they came with it. My suggestion: bring it back, but bring it back at a cost. Make that cost higher, say $5k as a one-off payment up front to enable unlimited use. People would have to do an insame amount of mileage for Tesla to lose out on the cost of electricity. Hey, they could even make it cheaper at purchase time and more expensive to enable afterwards, like AP functionality.

For those that don't want it, fine, it's great to have a PAYG model. Also, keep the free 400kWh/year as a taster for new Tesla owners. If they do a lot of miles, they might decide paying for an upgrade is worth it to them. However, I suspect as long as Tesla make the funding process an easy one online with automatic top-ups, then it keeps things simple.

If they make the the "3SC4L" (free supercharging for life) a relatively expensive option, it gives people the choice to go for it. For those that do, Tesla get an immediate $5k cash injection that can finance further development of the SC network. If a twin SC stall costs $50k in hardware, then every 10 Tesla cars sold pays for a new twin SC install...

Final point: if they do keep 3SC4L as an option, selling the dream as it was in the early days is an even more powerful differentiator to other EVs coming thick and fast to the market.

Make it a high priced option and then the ones that take it are the ones that don't value their time. They will try harder to "earn" their investment back. Even worse, they will be entitled to it. (*)

Just price it fairly on a per use basis. Fair price is critical to reduce the pain of stopping to charge. But it doesn't have to be free.


* yes, there are some cars that will be wrecked, sold to someone who doesn't care, etc.

I completely agree with brkaus's analysis. The dynamic changes once you introduce pay per use as an option. The buyers of such an "unlimited" option will be dominated by those that feel they can use a large amount of miles. It'll also encourage people to use as much as possible to earn back the difference (at least as much as it would cost to pay per use).

 

[Snerruc]

Tesla monetizing the SpC makes sense. If you want a rapid, extensive build out of the network, Tesla needs to finance it from revenues not borrowing. Also people buying $100,000 cars as well as $35,000 cars are used to paying for fuel. In the long run, electric cars will only succeed when the economics make sense without artificial distortions.

 

[whttiger25]

In the long run, electric cars will only succeed when the economics make sense without artificial distortions.

This is the most important point. If Tesla's goal is to accelerate the world's transition to alternative energy, then they must also create an economic model for alternative energy that is sustainable. It makes sense to offer free supercharging to early adopters because early adopters are taking such a risk and also supporting a growing and unprofitable company. However as we move towards the "infinite" future, economics are important. And Tesla's goal isn't only to be successful on it's own, it's to create competition as well, as their goal is to accelerate the world's transition, not just their own.

The success of EVs has ALWAYS been dependent on charging infrastructure. No other car company is building one like Tesla is, and if Tesla wants the world to adopt EVs, they either need to encourage more infrastructure from competitors (they are way behind), or take the lead in developing an economic model for charging infrastructure that is sustainable. Who knows, but maybe the revenue from Superchargers can be used to start building infrastructure that all EVs could use, and pay for. One thing I know about fast growing businesses with extremely high multiples, like Tesla, is that they are always looking for new ideas to generate growth and revenue to stay ahead of the curve. I wouldnt' be surprised to see Tesla branded Charging Stations like Chevron or Exxon gas stations in 10 years, not just as infrastructure designed to support Tesla vehicles, but rather as a separate business unit designed to be profitable and fulfill their mission statement.

My main concern is with the complexity of the technology. Gas is so simple, you just pump and measure a liquid. High wattage charging presents many more design and maintenance challenges. Tesla has already proven that they can't live up to their 10% to 80% charge in 40 minutes claim due to all kinds of hard to understand issues. They need to master the technology in order for this model to succeed and it's proven harder than thought.

 

[Model 3]

maybe the revenue from Superchargers can be used to start building infrastructure that all EVs could use, and pay for.

Tesla is working on a charging adapter that can support both CHAdeMO and SAE J1772 DC

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has been vocal about wanting to let other automakers use Tesla’s network of fast-charging stations. He said in a recent meeting in Paris:

“We want to do anything we can to help the advent of sustainable transport – so our network is open to any other manufacturer that want to use it. “

He also said that the company plans to add the European standard plug at its Supercharger stations in Europe so that other electric manufacturers will be able to offer access without having to use a Tesla adapter.

I wouldnt' be surprised to see "Tesla Charging Stations" like Chevron or Exxon in 10 years.

I do not think it will take 10 years...

 

[Sharkbait]

In the long run, electric cars will only succeed when the economics make sense without artificial distortions.

True as well. The success of the technology requires early adopters (many here), environmentalists (many here), competitive price point, and "artificial distortions". Up to now, I see the artificial distortions to be free supercharging, federal and state incentives. The last two incentives will disappear soon I think. And free SC'ing will go away for all at some point when the early models are in museums.

I do believe BEVs will be much more reliable thank ICEs, if they aren't already. With proliferation, price will certainly come down, especially with advances in battery technology. To me, the most important incentive to expand BEV sales will be the charging network.

It's currently disparate, unlike pulling up to a gasoline pump, where there always will be 89 octane and a hose to fill your tank intake, we have all sorts of chargers, delivering varying amperages of power, adapters, a wide range of pricing, and most important, too few of them.

Teslas got it right with Superchargers and it will be even better in the future. People are impatient and they don't want to wait even 20 minutes for a decent amount of power from a SC. It's much worse if you're hooking up to a 6 kW charger or 110 V. Then you have the pent up demand for BEVs by apartment dwellers, where few if any NEMA 14-50 outlets can be installed to a practical end.

The success of BEV technology will be determined by a fast, reliable, extensive, standard charging network everywhere down to the smallest village. I think that will be the primary incentive for buying a BEV. At a commercial charging point, a Tesla will be charging next to every kind of BEV. Maybe Tesla can/will sell or license their SC'ing patents. I would happily past on free SC'ing if charging stations were standardized and as ubiquitous at the current 112,000 gasoline stations in the U.S. down from 200,000 a little over 20 years ago. I’m scared to death of 500,000 M3s hitting the road in the upcoming year or so. Yesterday, I was at the Tesla, Buena Park service and every SC stall was full. It’s going to be like going to the bank on a Friday afternoon at 5 PM.

SC’ing stations aren’t cheap to build. Besides finding locations, permits can be a problem not to mention the $500K I was told to put up eight stalls. But that could well be cheaper than installing a new gasoline station with eight pumps.

Coming full circle, there is a cost for that and it will not be insignificant. ICE auto makers don't pay for gas stations nor should Tesla for Superchargers.

Disclaimer: I do not own TSLA

 

[thenaimis]

Note to self: order new P100D w/AP2 hardware by 12/31.

You may have meant that as a joke but I had planned on making some investments to finance buying a P100D in a few years after I pay off the 60 I currently own. Now I find myself having woken in the middle of the night trying to decide if I should buy now to get free SC access.

Probably not as I honestly don't do a lot of SC trips now. The last one I took on a whim and ended up with multiple chips in the paint and two in the wind shield. Probably thanks to the neverending construction on i35 between Austin and Dallas, but that's a separate issue.

 

[ecarfan]

SC’ing stations aren’t cheap to build. Besides finding locations, permits can be a problem not to mention the $500K I was told to put up eight stalls. But that could well be cheaper than installing a new gasoline station with eight pumps.

The general consensus on TMC over the past few years has been that a medium size Supercharger (around 8 stalls) costs on average around $250K in the US.

Much much cheaper than building a gas station. But they I do not see any new gas stations being built these days. I do see shutter gas stations and some vacant lots where a gas station used to be.

 

[Troy]

Hi. According to this source, Jeff Evanson, Tesla's VP of Investor Relations said cost per supercharger station was $270,000 in May 2015. At that time Tesla had 2870 stalls in 479 stations. That's 2870/499= 5.99 stalls per station. Therefore the cost per stall would be $270,000/5.99= $45.075. 8 stalls would be $360,600. As a side note currently Tesla has 4691 stalls in 749 stations. That's 6.26 stalls per station.

 

[Topher]

In the long run, electric cars will only succeed when the economics make sense without artificial distortions.

Are you under the impression that ICE cars are without artificial distortions? Or that they would make sense without those?

If we removed ALL the artificial distortions, EVs would be so vastly better economically, that it wouldn't even be a question. And we would use cars far less then we currently do.

Thank you kindly.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Much much cheaper than building a gas station. But they I do not see any new gas stations being built these days. I do see shutter gas stations and some vacant lots where a gas station used to be.

Now that you mention it, a supermarket I shop at recently ripped out their large gas station and put in a new one with expanded islands, to accommodate the heavy traffic they get. Just an anecdote to be sure, nevertheless I'm inclined to think that oil burners aren't dead just yet. EVs remain extremely rare here — four in a two county area — and trucks and SUVs make up the large majority of vehicles. Diesel pickups are especially common (which I hate, being a bicycle rider).

 

[Troy]

Hi, everybody. Check out Elon's latest tweet. Idle fees are coming. This was one of the features on the leaked Tesla web pages 3 months ago. See the second screenshot below. Also, it was one of the details I mentioned in this very thread a month ago here .

 

[Sharkbait]

Hi, everybody. Check out Elon's latest tweet. Idle fees are coming.

Excellent news! That should free up some of those SC spaces, especially those located near AMC movie theaters. Idle fees starting at around $25/hr should move a few of them out.

 

[mhan00]

Good. Set up fairly harsh idle time fees (maybe even ramping up the cost in set time increments) after a fifteen minute grace period and the issue should resolve itself.

 

[Sharkbait]

after a fifteen minute grace period and the issue should resolve itself.

I agree. Nobody should be more than 15 minutes away from their car in most of the SC locations that I've used.

 

[pdxrajiv]

I hope the idle charge is applicable only in places and/or at times of heavy use.
For example, It would be annoying having to disrupt your dinner at Taxes Roadhouse in Coeur d'Alene and run out to disconnect your car. This would be more difficult to implement but avoiding unneeded annoyances would be worth it.

I look forward to the era of self-charging cars.

 

[gaswalla]

Nah.. Idling is Idling