[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[Ulmo]

Would be interesting to find out if they died because of the crash for not wearing seat belts or because of the fire.

If it's first one - I feel more sorry for the firefighters for having wasted their time and potentially delayed saving someone else...

If it's the second - what's the purpose of the titanium plate in the Model S if it can't buy enough time to get out?

Either way, more details are needed...

I get the impression that a lot of people die in Tesla crashes because firefighters refuse to go past a few little tiny flames, and law enforcement keep people away from helping the car occupants get out, under the impression that it is ok to make them die since more dead people is easy to write down on a government report compared to dealing with getting them out of the car and stuff.

 

[Tam]

... But I think maybe you meant to say the passenger was riding in the back and the driver simply moved over to the passenger seat in his attempt to open the car - a failed attempt as the car was wedged in by trees on both sides, and they both succumbed to the smoke and/or injuries before they could get the car open...

That does make sense but the report says differently, the owner was driving by backing out of the driveway first then just shortly after the crash, the owner was found in the back seat later:

"KPRC 2 reporter Deven Clarke spoke to one man’s brother-in-law who said he was taking the car out for a spin with his best friend, so there were just two in the vehicle.

The owner, he said, backed out of the driveway, and then may have hopped in the back seat only to crash a few hundred yards down the road. He said the owner was found in the back seat upright."

 

[JHCCAZ]

I get the impression that a lot of people die in Tesla crashes because firefighters refuse to go past a few little tiny flames, and law enforcement keep people away from helping the car occupants get out, under the impression that it is ok to make them die since more dead people is easy to write down on a government report compared to dealing with getting them out of the car and stuff.

Sorry, but I think this that is an extremely cynical and out-of-touch interpretation. I admit that I myself took a mild shot at the responders jumping to conclusions re the accident theory, but your accusations of fear and criminal indifference are beyond the pale.

These guys are not cowards, they have vastly more competence and experience than you, and in no circumstance are they going to let someone burn to death because it makes the paperwork simpler - that's an outrageous and frankly ignorant statement.

Wow.

 

[JHCCAZ]

That does make sense but the report says differently, the owner was driving by backing out of the driveway first then first responders found the owner in the back seat later:

"KPRC 2 reporter Deven Clarke spoke to one man’s brother-in-law who said he was taking the car out for a spin with his best friend, so there were just two in the vehicle.

The owner, he said, backed out of the driveway, and then may have hopped in the back seat only to crash a few hundred yards down the road. He said the owner was found in the back seat upright."

Yes I read that, but it seems entirely reasonable that they simply traded places so the buddy could perform the launch.

 

[Tam]

Yes I read that, but it seems entirely reasonable that they simply traded places so the buddy could perform the launch.

Hopefully, the car logs would record the change in weights for each seat so we can figure that mystery out.

 

[Flehmenlips]

Hopefully, the car logs would record the change in weights for each seat so we can figure that mystery out.

One thing that puzzles me about this accident and any others involving a collision with a Tesla. Why doesn't the car prevent itself from colliding with a solid object? Why doesn't the emergency collision avoidance software bring the vehicle to a stop when it sees imminent impact with a stationary object?

 

[JHCCAZ]

Hopefully, the car logs would record the change in weights for each seat so we can figure that mystery out.

I don't really know, but I'm pretty doubtful that the seats contain a digital weighing scale per se. I think they simply have a switch that registers whether a person seems to be occupying the seat.

Also, again not being a Tesla engineer, I expect that a data snapshot is transmitted upon impact/airbag deployment. This again (I think) will not have a weight number of any precision but it might confirm which seats are occupied immediately before and/or after the event.

 

[Flehmenlips]

This whole situation reminds me of the Encyclopedia Brown mystery books I used to read as a kid. We need Encyclopedia Brown to solve the mystery!

 

[JHCCAZ]

One thing that puzzles me about this accident and any others involving a collision with a Tesla. Why doesn't the car prevent itself from colliding with a solid object? Why doesn't the emergency collision avoidance software bring the vehicle to a stop when it sees imminent impact with a stationary object?

First, trees may not register on the radar the same way a stationary vehicle or barrier does.

Second, I think that most accident-mitigation emergency braking systems will play an alert but will not intervene if the driver is forcefully exercising control, as in hard throttle or hard steering. The system is there to hit the brakes specifically when you seem to be inattentive. It won't try to take over from your deliberate control.

 

[Relayer]

These descriptions are close to exactly what I believe happened.

1. Owner + passenger go for test drive.
2. Owner hammers it at the end of the street to show acceleration.
3. At curve, car understeers and starts to drift right.
4. Driver possibly tweaks wheel to the right to avoid parked car (see post #194)
5. On the grass, car's left wheels hit and run over large manhole at high speed (see post #194). This may result in enough damage to the left side of the car to jam left-hand side doors.
6. Car crashes into trees, but impact is not enough to intrude much into passenger compartment (see post #86). Airbags likely deployed and protected the driver and passenger.
7. Fire begins, prompting driver and passenger to exit.
8. Due to 12V failure due to crash or physical jam condition, doors cannot be opened with electronic push buttons. Driver is owner, possibly knows and/or tries mechanical door release but with door jammed, can't get out. Passenger likely has no idea about mechanical door release.
9. Driver climbs to back to try to exit rear doors, again cannot open door either due to 12V failure, jam, or unable to access (or no knowledge of) rear door mechanical releases.
10. Driver and passenger become unconscious due to smoke inhalation.
11. Fire consumes car. Removes evidence of airbag deployment and seat belt use, leading to incorrect conclusions by first responders.

Autopilot / FSD / TACC had nothing to do with this accident.

One more tidbit: Why does driver's rear tire not burn? Because it's the closest part of the car to the firefighters (nearest to the hydrant, the fire truck's parking place, and the access path that the firefighters would have taken), thus it's getting the most water sprayed on it or near it. This is also further evidence that the fire developed a lot slower than the media is reporting. The tire survived from time of impact to the time that the firefighters got water onto the car, that's several minutes.

Yes, this is all pure speculation on my part. But I believe it to be the most likely and plausible scenario that fits the facts.

Honestly, this is hands down the best assessment. I'm thinking this is what happened until proven otherwise.

 

[MikeyC]

That's an interesting idea about acceleration. I'm sure they'll be checking that as a possibility. I'm still curious why you want there to be a driver when they have said there wasn't a driver? They seem to be sure.

Because Elon said data logs received "so far" indicate AP was not used. I'm simply believing data over people, particularly since quite a bit of what was reported was not true according to the firefighters on the scene. Of course, AP not being enabled doesn't necessarily mean the two individuals couldn't have done something stupid. They could have even pressed the stalk down twice, thought AP was enabled (and it was not), and the driver could have still gone to the back. More data would be needed to clear things up. One other thing that leads me to believe there was a driver is that the car appeared to be steering hard left based on dirt being thrown off to the right of the tracks in the grass and what looks like a rut caused by the rim digging into the ground. I'm not sure AP can apply that level of turning force on its own. I also believe excessive speed was involved: which AP won't do.

I suspect the driver went to the back after the crash looking for a way out. We all know it is possible to move from the driver's seat to the rear, particularly if you are faced with a car on fire, yet the investigators said this was "impossible". How could it be impossible if they are postulating that's exactly what the driver did... while the car was moving?

Mike

 

[AndyH]

The car was wedged between trees when the firefighters arrived. Might be the reason for the driver climbing back and trying to exit from the backseat.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384349149101838338

 

[alexgr]

It looks Mark Herman has some issues with Tesla. His response to the Musk's statement on the AP this morning has been basically a disbelief as he repeated his "eyewitness"' statement and told he wants to get Tesla log from Musk. Some "journalists" have spun up this already into "police subpoenaed Tesla" this morning. Also, Harris county police has no business in requesting data from Tesla when NHTSA and NTSB are investigating. It seems the police is pushing its narrative that the car drove itself lacking basic technical expertise with Tesla technology. He probably won't admit it, but Mark Herman would get no ticket running a red light in his Silverado if he was in Tesla on Autopilot. Dashcam catches testy exchange after Harris County Pct. 4 Constable pulled over for running red light

 

[Az_Rael]

He fully expected the car to take the corner and drive down to the end of the street whereupon it would stop at the stop sign automatically.

That is an FSD feature, not a basic AP feature as far as I know. So if the owner hadn’t bought FSD I don’t know why they would expect the car to stop at a stop sign.

 

[Needsdecaf]

If you look at the rotors on the two rear wheels, they are already rusty. In the time it takes the car to get put on the wrecker, I find it surprising that visible rust would have formed that quick? I don’t see any of the four doors, or door frames, in any of the photos?

I have visible rust on my rotors by the time I'm done washing my car. This is not surprising in the least.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Here's a video of a Tesla owner Sergio Rodriguez activating AP on a nothing street with no lines. AP sets itself to 45mph which he says is too high. AP proceeds to accelerate and fails to react to the curve except he stops it. Whether this video has any bearing on the crash in Texas it is interesting allowable behavior in the car. It seems to do what we are told Tesla's on AP cannot do.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1383917552762384386

Let's say the car "backed from the driveway" and started driving as we were told in witness statements. One guy in the back, one guy in the front. Some form of disable devices in the seatbelt and/or seat weight. Whatever was required. Let's suppose that starting position is halfway up the driveway at #2 Hammock Dunes Pl for the sake of argument, where there is a reddish car on Google Maps. Not sure if that is the correct house, but let's start there.
They back from the parking spot and drive down the driveway, through the cul de sac and down the street. Total distance is 450-550 ft. Somehow they have enabled Autopilot - as Sergio Rodriguez was able to do in his video. The Tesla "should" not allow this, but does anyway - as Sergio's car did. Let's say it accelerates to 45mph either given a nudge from the passenger's foot or by itself. Perhaps they entered a higher speed or resumed a previous set speed. Again, the Tesla "should" not do that, but perhaps they discovered that it actually does - as Sergio Rodriquez did. Perhaps they get it up much higher than 45mph.

Next, either AP fails to make the turn - like Sergio's car, or they nudged the wheel by mistake, disabling AP and it doesn't even try to turn. If they "nudged it off" then AP would show as not engaged, as Elon said.

45mph is not very fast, but perhaps fast enough to crash into the tree injuring the occupants. Perhaps they were not belted. Perhaps running over the curb/drain and hitting the tree was enough to cause an instant fire. Perhaps the fire was so sudden that though just injured they were incapable of escaping. Perhaps the passenger's seat was wedged against a tree, the battery had failed and the rear passenger didn't know the escape procedure. Perhaps 45mph was fast enough. Lots of "perhaps" I know, but it fits the scenario.

Just reconciling the witness statements with the list of possible reasons they might have tested the car in this manner. They wanted to see the car navigate on AP on their little street (maybe the owner had previously found that it would do it, even though it's not supposed to be able to do it). It seems AP can activate on streets with no lines. It seems the car can accelerate to an unsuitable 45mph on a small street. It seems the car on AP can fail to turn whatsoever on those streets (thanks to Sergio Rodriguez's video).

Would not be good for Tesla if AP could/did actually do all these dangerous things that Tesla claims it would never do.

Jesus, stop speculating.

Elon already tweeted that the car did not have FSD.

I don't care who Sergio is but I will tell you that basic AP will NOT activate on THESE roads. I live in the next subdivision over. It simply won't read the center seam as a lane line and will not activate.

Also, look at the length of the road. There would be NO time for a 59 year old 9or a 60 year old) to activate the system and climb into the back. There simply isn't enough road.

 

[zecar]

One thing that puzzles me about this accident and any others involving a collision with a Tesla. Why doesn't the car prevent itself from colliding with a solid object? Why doesn't the emergency collision avoidance software bring the vehicle to a stop when it sees imminent impact with a stationary object?

The car exited the roadway. It's not going to brake for trees just in case the car exits the roadway. It may have been braking off the roadway before it hit the trees, but that would be on soil. Obviously there was a high rate of speed here. I think the hypothesis that the occupants were conscious and trapped in the car is a good one. I'm only vaguely aware of the manual door releases, and I don't have a window break tool in my car.

 

[alexgr]

It looks Mark Herman has some issues with Tesla. His response to the Musk's statement on the AP this morning has been basically a disbelief as he repeated his "eyewitness"' statement and told he wants to get Tesla log from Musk. Some "journalists" have spun up this already into "police subpoenaed Tesla" this morning. Also, Harris county police has no business in requesting data from Tesla when NHTSA and NTSB are investigating. It seems the police is pushing its narrative that the car drove itself lacking basic technical expertise with Tesla technology. He probably won't admit it, but Mark Herman would get no ticket running a red light in his Silverado if he was in Tesla on Autopilot. Dashcam catches testy exchange after Harris County Pct. 4 Constable pulled over for running red light.

Jesus, stop speculating.

Elon already tweeted that the car did not have FSD.

I don't care who Sergio is but I will tell you that basic AP will NOT activate on THESE roads.

I agree, and also no Autopilot, TACC, or FSD features ludicrous acceleration that shows on grass in the accident video.

I have FSD (no, not the real thing yet), and I can't activate the Autopilot on any neighborhood streets. The car even detects lanes sometimes, but it never allows me to engage the AP. I don't know why this Sergio's ModelX allows to do it on that street. Maybe it's ModelX, maybe it's just that street (which is probably true as that guy returns to the same place to put "shame" on Tesla). I can agree with him that the speed limits are sometimes screwed up in Tesla, but that is a totally different story.

 

[MikeyC]

As far as I can figure, the attached is where the crash occurred. If I have the location right, you've got maybe 120 feet to accelerate from the end of the cul-de-sac and gain enough speed for the crash to be as violent as it appeared. This is starting to look like a classic "WATCH THIS!".

Mike

 

[alexgr]

Obviously there was a high rate of speed here.

All people of Tesla and other brands, please stop it already!!!
Yes, obviously EVERY crash involves a high NEGATIVE rate of speed called acceleration with the negative sign (could also be called deceleration). Rate of Speed is Acceleration by definition, measured in m/s^2. a = dv/dt - that's yo rate of speed!