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Updated autopilot sucks!

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Johno,

I love my model S P90DL and am quite a fan boy even though I have been quite critical of the car, the company and Musk on many points and occasions. Tesla is not perfect. Musk is not perfect. Incubating a new car company is crazy, and an electric car company even more so. This has to be an incredibly difficult lift with massive headwinds. Yet, in spite of all the negatives, the folks are voting with their feet and their dollars supporting the brand, buying Telsa products and stock.

I cannot describe how fun this car is to drive even with a few minor warts and all. My model S makes my beloved Corvette seem slow and somewhat of an loud, outdated, old-school dinosaur. Ditto with the Ferrari's, Lamborghini's and BMW's that I come across in town at stop lights and within quasilegal speeds. Electric is becoming in favor and Tesla and Musk a big catalyst.

I choose to focus on the positive, glass half full perspective. You seem to focus on the negative or glass half-empty perspective, or perhaps glass fully empty perspective. You raise some valid points and come across as a intelligent and creative writer. So what, you have some skills, so does Musk. People are buying what he is selling. You, not as much.
 
I have huge respect and admiration for Elon Musk and what he is trying to do. If there is one flaw in the system, it is likely that he is surrounded mostly by smart people who understand how things really work when his company calls something "Autopilot" and who pay attention when they drive and anticipate that the system will fail because it will never be perfect. When people take terms literally and don't understand limitations or instructions, then bad things happen. Most of the wailing about Autopilot is that Elon promised you a pony and right now it is not the prancing Arabian charger you had in your minds eye. I think most of us understood that we bought the promise of Autopilot and that in fact we are part of the program as drivers of these cars to make that happen. It is probably one of the most challenging AI tasks out there and it is going to take a lot longer than thought. I disagree with Johno in one sense that I would never think Tesla intended to deceive anyone and their marketing is more an issue of irrational exuberance. The recent update shows a more mature attitude that by necessity caters to the lowest common denominator.

I believe Tesla thought they would be close to full autonomy by the original timeline, but as they got deeper into solving the problem it was revealed to be harder than thought. I am not sad or disappointed and frankly I applaud the engineers who are probably burning their lives short working to make this a reality. It is regrettable that people driving Tesla's have died in tragic accidents. The safety features of the cars have likely saved some lives as well in major collisions but this will never make up for the sadness over those that were lost. There will be deaths caused by the autopilot systems of other manufacturers once they have a few cars on the road.

The reality is that improved tech will still kill people but the way they die will be different under AI than with human control of vehicles. No one analyzes the 100 deaths in cars every day in NA because they are generally human error and no longer interesting or newsworthy to the general population. Every advance in technology has come at a price - and while this does not make up for the loss of a loved one, society needs to keep moving forward in positive directions if we are to survive as a planet.
 
Did you really think any driver assistance system would work well in heavy snow and ice? Common sense?


I am a happy 2 year owner of an MX P90DL and l also fully agree with Johno above. Most of us "get" that Autopilot is no such thing and we bought a dream that will take 5 times longer to realize than promised. I personally like to drive hands on and only use AP on good highways or stop and go traffic. It is also useless in winter in Canada when the roads are covered in snow and ice since you cannot see the markings. I feel sad for the people who believed the hype but it does not take aways the shine from my love of my own car.

But also kudos to Johno as I think his analysis is witty, clear and frankly correct. Open debate and dissenting opinions should be respected.

:D
 
Elon's solution to change the nag to say move the steering wheel up and down every 20 seconds is ridiculous and hilarious. how about I rub my belly and tap my head every 20 seconds. The problem isn't what the message says, it's making autopilot so fatiguing to use that you might as well drive yourself. I've been using AP since the day it was released over 3 years ago, and it's actually less useful now than it was then.
 
Did you really think any driver assistance system would work well in heavy snow and ice? Common sense?

Well the GPS based Autopilot that they were talking about might work if the lines are not visible on the road. My point is not that I would expect autopilot to work in icy conditions in its current incarnation, but rather that there are many conditions where in fact it really does not work well. So in effect I agree with your point in the first place :D
 
Everyone should take a step back and realize that this increased “nag” is more a business decision than a safety one. Here’s why:

Most Tesla buyers have shelled out $5000 at purchase for EAP. That EAP has been great, and getting better and better until now with the increased nags. Now people are upset and claim the convenience of EAP for which they paid so much has been taken away.

Most Tesla buyers have NOT shelled out $3000 at purchase (on top of $5000 for EAP) for FSD because there’s no guarantee the feature will ever be released.

Let’s say between now and FSD release Tesla chooses to make the nags even worse, claiming it’s all for safety reasons. Once FSD is released, all those who had preordered it or just paid $4000 to activate it will start posting YouTube videos about their amazing nag-free life, and there will be 10,000 post threads on TMC and Forums about how paying for FSD will take away the nags. Tesla will also allow a 2 week free trial of FSD soon after that for people to experience it for themselves.

Suddenly, 200,000 Tesla owners all pay $4000 for FSD, mostly to be rid of the nag. Even if it’s 100,000 owners, that’s nearly half a billion dollars for Tesla. For pushing new software to the cars.

It’s briliant. Mark my words, AP will soon require you to read words displayed on the IC in order to
Prove your paying attention. “Elon is great” or “buy a Roadster” etc. Then everyone will activate FSD!!!
 
This is a perfect encapsulation of the cognitive dissonance that afflicts the credulous Tesla fan mindset: Quick to attack any driver who uses the system the way Tesla (in every forum except its own backside-covering disclaimers) aggressively wink-wink suggests the system can and should be used -- i.e., as a hands-free 'Autopilot' -- because those drivers are too 'stupid,' 'ignorant,' etc. to understand that it is not hands-free but a mere driver assist system . . . yet equally quick to complain when Tesla takes away the ability of Tesla enthusiasts (who style themselves as more capable than those stupid 'average' drivers) to misuse the system as a hands-free autopilot, i.e., as a toy that puts the lives of other drivers on the road at risk.

If y'all don't see the wooden nickel Tesla is putting in front of you here, I've got a bridge to sell you. It's a for-profit business, not a crusade. "Elon" doesn't see you as super-useful beta testers or part of some leading-edge vanguard. He sees you as tools to be led around by the nose and repeat his talking points in service of his current goal, which is to create the impression out there among tech journalists (the most credulous of all journalists) and the general public (most of whom aren't self-driving tech enthusiasts and reasonably enough aren't following this all that closely) that Tesla has spooky amazing self-driving technology that it doesn't actually have, while counting on legal disclaimers that contradict what Tesla says/does elsewhere to protect him from the consequences of misleading the public, and gullible fans to be an army of advocates and buy his claptrap about how much smarter, braver, forward-thinking, tough-minded, and savvy than that herd of cows out there who aren't part of the elite cohort of Those Who Recognize Elon Knows Best. And he's been very successful so far. (He would, in all seriousness, be a highly effective cult leader, though Tesla pays better I'm sure!)

There's a reason other automakers and regulators are aghast at the way Tesla has approached Autopilot from the start, and it's not because they are backwards-thinking grey-flannel-suit-wearing narrow-minded "boring questions aren't cool" bureaucrats who can't think outside the box, or because Tesla's mere existence threatens the mere existence of other automakers. That's more Musk-generated propaganda designed to flatter his customers and admirers into thinking that Smart People Always Believe Elon So If I'm With Elon Then I'm Smart And The Doubters Are Dumb/Backwards/Whatever (TM). The reason regulators and other automakers are aghast is because you don't do it this way, and you don't do it this way for good reason. Cars are high-stakes. Somewhere approaching 100 people will die in or because of a car in the U.S. before today is out. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 will be injured today. (Oh, and if you buy Musk's appallingly cynical fuzzy math about how it's proven that Tesla is already making the roads safer I've got an even bigger and longer bridge to sell you.) You don't introduce driver-assist technology until you know it really, really works and you don't misrepresent, fudge, wink-wink, or do anything but talk straight to the public about what your driver-assist technology can and cannot do. Doing your best to make the public think your tech is worthy of the name "Autopilot" while relying on contradictory disclaimers to protect yourself is dangerous and just plain huckster-sleazy.

Autopilot crashes aren't happening because people are too "stupid" and "ignorant" to handle the technology; they're happening because people are people, and it is 100% foreseeable that if you give drivers hands-free technology that kind of works some-to-much of the time and your public-facing message (to include videos of your CEO using it) encourages them to go ahead and use it hands-free, then they are gonna use it hands-free, and if they're using it hands-free they will eventually become distracted, not because they are "stupid" but because *anyone* (even an elite Tesla enthusiast) would eventually become distracted in that circumstance, because (say it with me now) They. Are. Human. And once they become distracted they are now in a driverless car lacking driverless car technology and sooner or later they're gonna crash into something or someone.

It'd be nice to see some of the anger currently directed at those benighted souls who took away all the fun -- i.e., the general public, those stuffy fearful regulators -- redirected where it belongs, at Elon Musk and Tesla for playing us all for suckers and trying to sell us a self-driving bridge.

Nikola Tesla himself was deft at convincing the public (even now all these decades after his death) that he had spooky amazing technology that he didn't actually have (force fields and such). I wonder sometimes if Musk chose the name Tesla as a little inside joke for himself (Barnum must've been his runner-up), to remind himself daily how he's leading us around by the nose with don't-look-too-closely-at-the-details promises (self-driving technology, vactrain technology as currently practical and economically viable on a large scale) that are forever almost-fulfilled.
Don't hold back. Don't have be so succinct. Unleash.
 
Are you ok with "hands on" if it works correctly. Or no matter what you want "hands off"?

If you are really from the "hands off" camp you will never be happy until Tesla comes out with FSD or back tracks.

If you have no problem with "hands on", I think if you give it a little time to train you brain/motor system it will become very natural and not a problem. So much better then simply using TACC and then driving yourself. You could actually start with TACC+AS and "pretend / go thru the motions" of driving yourself by following the movement of AS to remove the nags. Slight movement of the wheel is all that is needed which you might be doing anyway if driving yourself. Very similar for me.

I will give you example of what I when thru with my computer (brain/motor). When I first switched from Windows to Mac I was interested in using a Track Pad (to kind of match my laptop). I liked it but still switched back to the mouse after a bit to get real work done. But it was important to me to switch to the Track Pad so I said to myself I would give it 1 week of nothing but the Track Pad. I had to get use to a few things but after that 1 week I have never looked back. So much happier to be using a Track Pad instead of a mouse. But like I said I really have to give it a little time. And I was motivated to make the switch.

Hope this helps.

I’m in the hands on camp. Have been driving AP1 on Model S for 3 years now and had no issues with nagging.

It’s the X or rather AP2.5 that somehow doesn’t detect my hands no matter what “natural” way I try: 10-2, 5, 8.. no matter what I do, it starts nagging and now more frequently.

At the very least I would like them to make the torque sensitivity as high as possible but I suspect it’s a hardware issue. Some combination of X and AP2.5 and my specific vehicle parts/calibration just doesn’t work as it does on the S.

This is the real frustration. On top of that, users who are not facing this issue believe that either we are lying or don’t want to hold the wheel when that’s not the case. I’ve showed this issue to the service people twice now and they acknowledge that hands on wheel is not consistent on my vehicle. It’s comical how much turning I have to do to make the nag go away! Frustrating!
 
I’m in the camp of those who notice no change with the update. In fact I went out today to test specifically for increased NAGs. In fact in an hour of using autopilot the only time I ever got a NAG was when I took my hands completely off the wheel. I tried decreasing the resistance with my hands and even the lightest pressure kept the nags at bay. So for me, I only noticed the improvements with no compromises. Very happy. I can only conclude that there is some individual vehicle differences. One thing I did notice was the appearance of an oversized gray P in lower leftt area of the center display. This came on at a stoplight. I had never seen it before and wondered if this is a new feature. It disappeared when I accelerated when the light turned green. I never saw it again and was unable to duplicate the gray P. I was hoping that maybe it was a automatic hold to keep the car in place when you are stopped on a hill.. I cannot understand why the auto hold is not a driver selectable option. I have almost rolled back into cars several times when at lights. Yes I know you can mash the brake hard to get it to hold--but all my other cars have had the auto hold and it is easy to forget.
 
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I’m in the camp of those who notice no change with the update. In fact I went out today to test specifically for increased NAGs. In fact in an hour of using autopilot the only time I ever got a NAG was when I took my hands completely off the wheel. I tried decreasing the resistance with my hands and even the lightest pressure kept the nags at bay. So for me, I only noticed the improvements with no compromises. Very happy. I can only conclude that there is some individual vehicle differences. One thing I did notice was the appearance of an oversized gray P in lower leftt area of the center display. This came on at a stoplight. I had never seen it before and wondered if this is a new feature. It disappeared when I accelerated when the light turned green. I never saw it again and was unable to duplicate the gray P. I was hoping that maybe it was a automatic hold to keep the car in place when you are stopped on a hill.. I cannot understand why the auto hold is not a driver selectable option. I have almost rolled back into cars several times when at lights. Yes I know you can mash the brake hard to get it to hold--but all my other cars have had the auto hold and it is easy to forget.
That P is the auto parking, that also never works when you need it to. lol
 
I’m in the hands on camp. Have been driving AP1 on Model S for 3 years now and had no issues with nagging.

It’s the X or rather AP2.5 that somehow doesn’t detect my hands no matter what “natural” way I try: 10-2, 5, 8.. no matter what I do, it starts nagging and now more frequently.

At the very least I would like them to make the torque sensitivity as high as possible but I suspect it’s a hardware issue. Some combination of X and AP2.5 and my specific vehicle parts/calibration just doesn’t work as it does on the S.

This is the real frustration. On top of that, users who are not facing this issue believe that either we are lying or don’t want to hold the wheel when that’s not the case. I’ve showed this issue to the service people twice now and they acknowledge that hands on wheel is not consistent on my vehicle. It’s comical how much turning I have to do to make the nag go away! Frustrating!
I assume you rebooted everything which has help others. Did SC say if they can do anything? I believe you. I would escalate it as high as possible if SC agrees but can not fix it.