Updated CARB certificate for Model Y Performance

[leafian]

Its now listed as 447.17 UDDS miles.

 

[MikeDog77]

It was 441.91 before so a slight increase.

 

[reardencode]

I've read that over time they've been able to keep the Model 3 battery kWh the same while using fewer cells, due to gradual improvements in battery chemistry. This makes me wonder if the Model Y will launch with the same physical pack sizes as the Model 3, but with all cell spaces populated to give it higher kWh capacity (eg. 80 and 55 instead of 75 and 50).

 

[MikeDog77]

I've read that over time they've been able to keep the Model 3 battery kWh the same while using fewer cells, due to gradual improvements in battery chemistry. This makes me wonder if the Model Y will launch with the same physical pack sizes as the Model 3, but with all cell spaces populated to give it higher kWh capacity (eg. 80 and 55 instead of 75 and 50).

That plus if they make any motor or software changes that allows for greater efficiency, they could reduce the kWh capacity and because they were smart and did not call the Model 3 by the kwH size like M3 75, they can make these changes and none knows.

 

[Feathermerchan]

Where did you read that?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

, they could reduce the kWh capacity and because they were smart and did not call the Model 3 by the kwH size like M3 75, they can make these changes and none knows.

This part isn't true. The kWh capacity of each vehicle is explicitly provided in the submissions from Tesla to the EPA. It can also be roughly derived (though assumptions have to be made for charging efficiency, and voluntary derating confuses the picture) from the published EPA MPGe numbers in the EPA datafile. There's no chance that "no one" will know!

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/

Currently the 447.17 miles for the Model Y Performance (presumably with the most efficient wheel option) can be compared to 487.37 miles for the Model 3 Performance with 18" wheel option.

So currently city range looks like it'll be about 8.3% lower than that of the Model 3 Performance. (Scaled down, 314 miles city vs. 343 city for the 3P 18".) Obviously due to worse aero, the overall average is likely to be more like 10% worse, so more like 299 miles vs. the 3P 18" range of 332 EPA miles. Lines up pretty well with the website projections!

So we'd expect an EPA highway test result of about 400 miles for the Model Y P, vs. the 454 miles for the Model 3 P 18". (Scaled down to 281 miles vs. 319 miles (3P 18").)

Looks very likely to still be about 79kWh available capacity, same as the Model 3 Long Range variants. But I guess we'll see.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So we'd expect an EPA highway test result of about 400 miles for the Model Y P, vs. the 454 miles for the Model 3 P 18". (Scaled down to 281 miles vs. 319 miles (3P 18").)

To follow up on this, now that the Model 3 P is being advertised at 315 miles...not 300...we'll need to keep an eye on the CARB certificate some more - see whether there is yet another update... They may have just changed the 5-cycle-to-2-cycle scalar a few % (I don't really understand how they can change this, but they do on some vehicles...). Here's an estimate of how things could work out...here. We don't know this yet (I just made up 0.739). But we'll see.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The EPA datafile now contains the data on Model Y Performance, and I've summarized it here. Wasn't quite able to line up the results with the CARB AER data, but it's very close. Anyway, it's a 77.6kWh to 79kWh battery for Model Y. Generally highway mileage appears it is going to be considerably worse than Model 3 (not surprisingly).

Model Y Battery Details

 

[Fiddler]

The EPA datafile now contains the data on Model Y Performance, and I've summarized it here. Wasn't quite able to line up the results with the CARB AER data, but it's very close. Anyway, it's a 77.6kWh to 79kWh battery for Model Y. Generally highway mileage appears it is going to be considerably worse than Model 3 (not surprisingly).

Model Y Battery Details

Just using www.fueleconomy.gov/ for MYP:
315 mile range and 28kWh/100 miles is 3.15x28= 88.2 kWh for MYP
Something is a little off. 79kWh and 88kWh differ by 9kWh. That's too much.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Just using www.fueleconomy.gov/ for MYP:
315 mile range and 28kWh/100 miles is 3.15x28= 88.2 kWh for MYP
Something is a little off. 79kWh and 88kWh differ by 9kWh. That's too much.

Nope, nothing off. Remember the 88.2kWh is the recharge event energy and includes charging losses. See the post linked above.

 

[Fiddler]

Nope, nothing off. Remember the 88.2kWh is the recharge event energy and includes charging losses. See the post linked above.

@AlanSubie4Life EPA www.fueleconomy.gov/ is saying the usable battery is 88.2 kWh
Certainly the battery also has reserve capacity and charging requires more than the 88.2 kWh.
1. EPA says 28kWh/100 miles efficiency
2. EPA says 315 mile range


3.15x28= 88.2 kWh
That means the MYP has 88.2 kWh of usable energy, and requires even more to charge it.
I read the link you referenced, but that doesn't change the two numbers on the EPA www.fueleconomy.gov/ page. The link refers to a 88.4% charging efficiency, not 88.2 kWh of usable battery capacity.

 

[St☰v☰]

YMMV And about the Ocean front property in Utah....

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

3.15x28= 88.2 kWh
That means the MYP has 88.2 kWh of usable energy, and requires even more to charge it.

That is incorrect. All efficiency numbers at fueleconomy.gov are wall-to-wheels. If you don't believe me, look at the 2020 Model 3 Performance 18" numbers there - all of that battery information has been published and there is zero ambiguity - that battery is 79.5kWh.

Here is all the data; the data in orange boxes is provided directly by Tesla, and the rest is calculated and matches the EPA datafile exactly except where noted:

2020, 2019, 2018 Model 3 Battery Capacities & Charging Constants

Let me know if you have further questions.

 

[Fiddler]

That is incorrect. All efficiency numbers at fueleconomy.gov are wall-to-wheels. If you don't believe me, look at the 2020 Model 3 Performance 18" numbers there - all of that battery information has been published and there is zero ambiguity - that battery is 79.5kWh.

Here is all the data; the data in orange boxes is provided directly by Tesla, and the rest is calculated and matches the EPA datafile exactly except where noted:

2020, 2019, 2018 Model 3 Battery Capacities & Charging Constants

Let me know if you have further questions.

@AlanSubie4Life Thank you. I'm starting to understand. The EPA 28kWh/100 is the wall power needed to drive 100 miles. Got it.