[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[brianman]

Here's how I see it. We all believe Tesla has read these threads, as we all believe Tesla removed the 691 HP number from their website. If they wanted to goodwill this for us, great - I don't think anyone would complain. The fact is - Tesla most likely knows about the issue. If all of the information people have written on here was wrong, I believe someone from Tesla would have simply come out by now and said, "This is how we calculated the 691 number, etc etc." and this would all be a moot point.

I haven't seen that happen yet. That leads me to believe someone screwed up somewhere and I have to agree with all the folks wanting it corrected in some way.

And here's where I have a problem. Tesla knows about this thread, and the concern. I heard so explicitly from Ted at Connect.

Yet they let this sit, hoping it will blow over. And I think that's both shortsighted and erodes trust with the company.

Anybody can write a "look at our cool stuff coming out" blog post. I takes more than that to man up when you make a misstep, and correct the record clearly and publicly. Tesla has avoided doing that on a number of occasions. A pack supercharging and P85D horsepower are two cases that come to mind immediately.

"But but the shareholders...." I don't care if the shareholders (including myself) are upset at a potentially temporary blip down because "OMG Tesla admitted to not being perfect". The stock blips every day from all kinds of things. This is about the long run -- about Tesla and EV credibility.

 

[wk057]

A pack supercharging and P85D horsepower are two cases that come to mind immediately.

Agree with the bulk of your post, just this one question/correction:

I'm not sure if the A-pack supercharging issue is comparable. Were people buying vehicles from Tesla with A-packs while Tesla advertised 120kW supercharging? Not a rhetorical question. I'm honestly asking because I don't know if this was the case or not since that was before my time, so to speak. As far as I can recall from what I've read here and elsewhere 120kW supercharging was just an upgrade that came later (the supercharger announcement video made it seem as though people didn't even know DC charging was possible on existing vehicles), just like the autopilot sensors and such and the A-pack folks did in fact get what they paid for... more in fact since I don't think the build out of a supercharger network was known until well after deliveries began.

 

[brianman]

P85D launch without traction control.

This phrasing confuses me. Have you been pulling fuses?

- - - Updated - - -

The most telling thing in the video is that the said "there was a hesitation off the line...almost as though the electric motors took a deep breath".

A normal P85D launch not only doesn't have any hesitation but its' far more instantaneous than any ICE.

The only thing that would cause hesitation like that is either traction control or pressing the brake i.e. not releasing the brake pedal all the way when you're pressing the accelerator. I suspect one of these two things the case. I'm shocked they didn't do more than one test even if it all seemed to go perfectly the first time.

That said, if the 0-60 time doesn't include the 1 ft rollout, then it's only 0.1 seconds off. If it does include the 1ft rollout, then it's off by 0.5 seconds.

I presumed he had Creep on and was switching from brake to accelerator rather than from "foot up" to accelerator.

Which brings up another drag racing tip... make sure Creep is off.

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't a fact per se

@sorka - The beginning of the video starts with the "both pedals pressed" message and he talks about Slip Start. This further supports that he has Creep on throughout his driving experience with the vehicle. I conclude from that he definitely did the brake to accelerator maneuver later during the drag test.

 

[Laserbrain]

why does this P90DL video still have the kwh at 480?

I don't think the P90D's battery will deliver more than 480 KW (~650 HP). It's the same marketing smoke and mirrors stuff we have seen with the P85D.

Which is sad, because even with their real performance figures (P90DL = maybe 600 HP at the crank?) these cars would be still awsome. There is really no need to BS the customers.

 

[brianman]

Agree with the bulk of your post, just this one question/correction:

I'm not sure if the A-pack supercharging issue is comparable.

Point of clarification. The A pack example ("entire fleet") was about trust erosion and honesty. I wasn't meaning a tight comparison with the P85D concern discussed here and elsewhere. Sorry for any confusion here.

- - - Updated - - -

Were people buying vehicles from Tesla with A-packs while Tesla advertised 120kW supercharging?

My recollection of the timeline is that there were "early" references to 120 kW supercharging well before I configured my Sig (in June 2012). As such, when 120 kW was announced and "entire fleet" phrasing was used I, like many, assumed I was good to go. Wrong.

The record being built is this:
1. Don't blindly trust what Tesla says. The website is always in motion. The words of Elon are usually "future optimistic"* tense. If you get it in writing and signed by a notary, you might have a chance fighting it in court -- but then you're the "bad guy". And aside from the bad guy description, you have to be "taking your own cause" to court in such cases -- if you're a proponent of EV adoption by the auto industry en masse; it's a horrible position to put customers in.
2. Trust the spirit of where they're headed, and rest assured every 6 months (or faster) your vehicle will feel horribly obsolete because the product is advancing in quality, performance, and overall tech.

I love the product; I just wish it was described accurately by the company that produces it.


* Additional note: I'm totally onboard with Elon (and the management team) using such language and descriptions to motivate the employees internally (memos, emails, meetings, etc.). What I have a problem with is promising things that don't exist (or barely exist in prototype) publicly on products being sold today. As an example, all kinds of crazy things can be described as "hopefully for Model 3" but as soon as the configurator description is docusigned and they take the payment -- all published promises should be fulfilled in a timely manner (and without additional customer "upgrade" cost).

 

[Laserbrain]

@sorka - The beginning of the video starts with the "both pedals pressed" message and he talks about Slip Start. This further supports that he has Creep on throughout his driving experience with the vehicle. I conclude from that he definitely did the brake to accelerator maneuver later during the drag test.

They should have hired Bjørn as a driver:

At least he got 3,4s for (a non-BS) 0-60 mph and 3,6s for (a non-BS) 0-100 kph.

 

[dsm363]

They should have hired Bjørn as a driver:

At least he got 3,4s for (a non-BS) 0-60 mph and 3,6s for (a non-BS) 0-100 kph.

Well there you go. Even in that part of the world it's not 4 seconds as has been stated.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

And here's where I have a problem. Tesla knows about this thread, and the concern. I heard so explicitly from Ted at Connect.

Yet they let this sit, hoping it will blow over. And I think that's both shortsighted and erodes trust with the company.

Anybody can write a "look at our cool stuff coming out" blog post. I takes more than that to man up when you make a misstep, and correct the record clearly and publicly. Tesla has avoided doing that on a number of occasions. A pack supercharging and P85D horsepower are two cases that come to mind immediately.

"But but the shareholders...." I don't care if the shareholders (including myself) are upset at a potentially temporary blip down because "OMG Tesla admitted to not being perfect". The stock blips every day from all kinds of things. This is about the long run -- about Tesla and EV credibility.

Even Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, issued two public apologies to customers early into his tenure after Steve Jobs passed. The most visible and publicized apology was over the Apple Maps issues. In 2013, Cook sent a letter of apology to customers in China about Apple's warranty policies. If the CEO of the largest and highest valued companies in the world can apologize, so can Elon Musk.

And to Brianman's point, those apologies were nothing more than blips (if that) in Apple's stock price.

I work in real estate. If a managing broker is aware of a licensee doing something illegal, the broker must sever that agent immediately and report the illegal activity to the Dept. of Real Estate immediately. As a broker, taking immediate action to curtain the illegal activity and sever the guilty party is directly related to whether that broker will be held accountable for that agent's activity. Timing is everything, at least in my world.

The longer Tesla ignores this issue, the worse it becomes in my opinion. The best action would be to simply admit to the error and be as transparent as possible with the media as well as regulators. Develop an internal restitution program, and reach out to affected owners with a way to make this right for THEM. Instead, Tesla stays silent. In my opinion, if this blows up into a big thing, Tesla's extended silence and lack of action in the face of many opportunities could bite them in the butt.

 

[rns-e]

Well there you go. Even in that part of the world it's not 4 seconds as has been stated.

Or is it? Are those numbers with rollout or even worse measured with an iPhone app or handheld stopwatch??? My guess is that it is not a pbox without rollout, but you could ask Bjørn

 

[wk057]

On a side note, if anyone local wants to borrow my performance box for some testing, it's sitting here idle the majority of the time. I considered hard wiring it in the P85D, but decided against it.

 

[rns-e]

On a side note, if anyone local wants to borrow my performance box for some testing, it's sitting here idle the majority of the time. I considered hard wiring it in the P85D, but decided against it.

Well they have that in the Porsche 911 - a stopwatch to help you time your 0-60. Should be very easy for Tesla to implement a stopwatch function in the screen. Maybe in v7?

 

[wk057]

Well they have that in the Porsche 911 - a stopwatch to help you time your 0-60. Should be very easy for Tesla to implement a stopwatch function in the screen. Maybe in v7?

They can't do that. If they start it from 0 then people will know the 0-60 times quoted are with rollout and not true 0-60 times. If they start it at ~7 MPH then people will wonder wtf the car is doing waiting until 7 MPH (~1 ft rollout based on my drag strip times) before starting the clock.

So, not going to happen, IMO.

 

[rns-e]

They can't do that. If they start it from 0 then people will know the 0-60 times quoted are with rollout and not true 0-60 times. If they start it at ~7 MPH then people will wonder wtf the car is doing waiting until 7 MPH (~1 ft rollout based on my drag strip times) before starting the clock.

So, not going to happen, IMO.

I'm at that point where I think it would actually be hilarious if Tesla sent out a 0-60 mph stopwatch app that stated at 7 mph And having Elon do a big launch of the app - "Oehhmm, this is the fastest stopwatch in the world, he heh eh"

 

[Lump]

How Does Horsepower Figure Into Electric Cars? - HowStuffWorks

Ricardo for those that may not know works for Tesla, his job is to oversee public relations, communications with customers, and Tesla’s presence online.

 

[kseitzberg]

I'm at that point where I think it would actually be hilarious if Tesla sent out a 0-60 mph stopwatch app that stated at 7 mph And having Elon do a big launch of the app - "Oehhmm, this is the fastest stopwatch in the world, he heh eh"

Are we sure that the speedometer and the GPS inside the vehicle is precise enough to measure the times correctly? And that the nvidia CPU and display is fast enough to update the display to show the correct numbers?

I would say NO - the GPS is only 4 hz and not reliable enough to calculate precise times/coordinates. To measure the times correctly a high precision tool like the VBOX is mandatory.

 

[fiksegts]

same here for anyone in South Florida....

On a side note, if anyone local wants to borrow my performance box for some testing, it's sitting here idle the majority of the time. I considered hard wiring it in the P85D, but decided against it.

 

[sorka]

Are we sure that the speedometer and the GPS inside the vehicle is precise enough to measure the times correctly? And that the nvidia CPU and display is fast enough to update the display to show the correct numbers?

I would say NO - the GPS is only 4 hz and not reliable enough to calculate precise times/coordinates. To measure the times correctly a high precision tool like the VBOX is mandatory.

...and an external antenna. I had a lengthy email conversation with Racelogic over this and they insisted that once I go an external antenna the the raw data would not be anywhere near as jumpy. I got one and the data was super clean at that point with almost no noise. The signals bounce around a lot inside the car and it's just not optimal.

 

[wk057]

...and an external antenna. I had a lengthy email conversation with Racelogic over this and they insisted that once I go an external antenna the the raw data would not be anywhere near as jumpy. I got one and the data was super clean at that point with almost no noise. The signals bounce around a lot inside the car and it's just not optimal.

Yeah, I have the external antenna now as well and feel the same. The data without it is still valid, but is a bit noisy for sure. The data with it is definitely much cleaner though.

 

[ProSkeptic]

Most of the hardware that would be needed to have what amounts to a built-in VBox is already in the car as part of the stability control and airbag systems. Maybe you'd want a better resolution out of your accelerometers for the purpose of performance measurement, but you're talking about maybe $20 worth of hardware upgrades. Once the car has high-quality accelerometer inputs, calculating performance measurements is simple.

 

[jerjozwik]

awww.... consumer reports p85d only got 3.5
Tesla P85D Handling, Braking, 0-60 Test Results | Consumer Reports - YouTube