Upgrade current panel for charging?

[eprosenx]

Thanks for the follow up --- I went ahead and uploaded a closer view of the panel labels/breakers- Electrical panels -

To follow up on your points----

1) You bring up an interesting point about the tandem breaker on the upper left. I will wait for the next electrician to come and ask them to see. I do want to bring your attention to the BOTTOM RIGHT tandem that is in there right now --- When the electrician took it out, he told me that the back of the break was "cut" to make it fit. It all sounds so shady with the current arrangement, am I better off to have the electrician replace all breakers to the appropriate ones? Esp after reading that label able using only correct breakers for the panel on the label itself..

2) Is it better to add a sub panel or increase the size of the panel? Considering your last point, it is very likely I will need a minimum of 2 condensers for my AC. Also, not sure if this matter, per the electrician who looked at the condenser connections -- he told me that the connections are 110V. Does that change anything?

Yeah, so this raises even more eyebrows for me.

I don't know how there are tandems in the upper left position. Did someone defeat a locking mechanism on those too? I can't tell what brand they are even. If the label on the door panel is correct, that position should not allow tandems.

If you are comfortable (and can safely) take the cover off and take some more pictures I would be curious what the bus bars for the one empty spot looks like (as well as the wiring in the rest of the panel). I wanted to make sure the panel was not like installed upside down from the label and so the *top* six positions may be valid for tandems? Also good to make sure there are not more questionable things lurking other than the hodge podge of breakers. I have not installed any of these GE 1/2in breakers before so I am curious how they connect to the bus bar.

What needs to happen is a load calculation needs to be run on the home (including the new AC units you plan to install) to figure out if you have any remaining capacity to use for a car charger. 100a may be tight. Fitting into a 100a service will save you a bunch of money though if you can do it.

By my math, if the two AC units you want to install are 120v only then you may be golden (this means the breakers are only single wide breakers rather than taking two spots each). With consolidating some circuits onto tandems (or in this case 1/2 in wide breakers) plus the one empty spot you have, this will give you a place for a single 240v breaker plus two new 120v breakers for AC plus one remaining single wide breaker position (or just don't upgrade one tandem location to a tandem yet). You might need to play a bit of musical chairs with your breakers though since like GFCI breakers don't generally come in tandem forms.

As far as the breakers go: I am sketched out by the random various breakers used and the fact that a notch mechanism was defeated. While some breakers not listed on the panel door may later have been rated for that panel (after it was produced), I am wondering if that is not what is going on here. I am guessing someone grabbed whatever they had laying around.

Since these are all (but maybe one) basic old school breakers (not AFCI, GFCI, etc...), I might heavily consider what you suggest and just buy all new breakers. They are a handful of bucks each.

If you can fit everything inside this single panel I would go with that rather than a subpanel. I personally think it is cleaner. Replacing the entire panel with one with 40 spots may not be horrible either (though again, cheapest may be to stick with what you have). The panels really don't cost that much. Labor is the spendy part. That may also set you up to be able to switch to a 200a service in the future if needs dictate it.

 

[Jdee2wheels]

I had similar electrical loads in my house, 100 amp service, and no room left in the service panel. I was afraid I'd need an expensive upgrade to a new panel and 200 amp service. However, after having an electrician do the load calculations, there was still plenty of leeway for 30 amps dedicated to the EV charger (50 amps was pushing it). A sub panel was installed very cheaply, and while maybe not as clean as a whole new panel, it's way cheaper, closer to the EV outlet, and allowed an additional circuit for a few outlets in my workshop. A 30 amp 14-30 plug has also proved to be more than adequate for my charging needs.

 

[eprosenx]

Yeah, so this raises even more eyebrows for me.

I don't know how there are tandems in the upper left position. Did someone defeat a locking mechanism on those too? I can't tell what brand they are even. If the label on the door panel is correct, that position should not allow tandems.

If you are comfortable (and can safely) take the cover off and take some more pictures I would be curious what the bus bars for the one empty spot looks like (as well as the wiring in the rest of the panel). I wanted to make sure the panel was not like installed upside down from the label and so the *top* six positions may be valid for tandems? Also good to make sure there are not more questionable things lurking other than the hodge podge of breakers. I have not installed any of these GE 1/2in breakers before so I am curious how they connect to the bus bar.

What needs to happen is a load calculation needs to be run on the home (including the new AC units you plan to install) to figure out if you have any remaining capacity to use for a car charger. 100a may be tight. Fitting into a 100a service will save you a bunch of money though if you can do it.

By my math, if the two AC units you want to install are 120v only then you may be golden (this means the breakers are only single wide breakers rather than taking two spots each). With consolidating some circuits onto tandems (or in this case 1/2 in wide breakers) plus the one empty spot you have, this will give you a place for a single 240v breaker plus two new 120v breakers for AC plus one remaining single wide breaker position (or just don't upgrade one tandem location to a tandem yet). You might need to play a bit of musical chairs with your breakers though since like GFCI breakers don't generally come in tandem forms.

As far as the breakers go: I am sketched out by the random various breakers used and the fact that a notch mechanism was defeated. While some breakers not listed on the panel door may later have been rated for that panel (after it was produced), I am wondering if that is not what is going on here. I am guessing someone grabbed whatever they had laying around.

Since these are all (but maybe one) basic old school breakers (not AFCI, GFCI, etc...), I might heavily consider what you suggest and just buy all new breakers. They are a handful of bucks each.

If you can fit everything inside this single panel I would go with that rather than a subpanel. I personally think it is cleaner. Replacing the entire panel with one with 40 spots may not be horrible either (though again, cheapest may be to stick with what you have). The panels really don't cost that much. Labor is the spendy part. That may also set you up to be able to switch to a 200a service in the future if needs dictate it.

Oh, and I also forgot to mention... I am not sure why the entire freaking panel is full of Thomas and Betts breakers... Are those cross-listed for use in a GE panel? (note that many manufacturers got bought by others and became the genesis of their new lines, but I don't think T&B got bought by GE)

 

[eprosenx]

I had similar electrical loads in my house, 100 amp service, and no room left in the service panel. I was afraid I'd need an expensive upgrade to a new panel and 200 amp service. However, after having an electrician do the load calculations, there was still plenty of leeway for 30 amps dedicated to the EV charger (50 amps was pushing it). A sub panel was installed very cheaply, and while maybe not as clean as a whole new panel, it's way cheaper, closer to the EV outlet, and allowed an additional circuit for a few outlets in my workshop. A 30 amp 14-30 plug has also proved to be more than adequate for my charging needs.

FWIW, in this case if sticking with the 100a panel I might go with the Wall Connector and then have it wired up for at least a 50a breaker (probably even maybe a 60a breaker). Then you can set the rotary dial down low enough so as to not overload your panel per the NEC load calculations.

I would then perhaps get a "sense" unit to monitor your power usage. After looking at it for long enough, I might then gain confidence to be able to set the wall connector to draw at a higher rate if I determined there was no danger of overloading the 100a panel (or in case you eventually upgraded the 100a service or say deprecated some electrical appliance that allowed you to re-use that capacity for a car).

 

[tga]

FWIW, in this case if sticking with the 100a panel I might go with the Wall Connector and then have it wired up for at least a 50a breaker (probably even maybe a 60a breaker). Then you can set the rotary dial down low enough so as to not overload your panel per the NEC load calculations.

I would then perhaps get a "sense" unit to monitor your power usage. After looking at it for long enough, I might then gain confidence to be able to set the wall connector to draw at a higher rate if I determined there was no danger of overloading the 100a panel (or in case you eventually upgraded the 100a service or say deprecated some electrical appliance that allowed you to re-use that capacity for a car).

I'm really unhappy with my sense unit. Overpromise and under-deliver. Nice idea, still beta. It forgets devices it already found, finds new devices that are just duplicates of things it already found, etc.

It used to track car charging well (after spending a month plus to find the car). Now it sometimes sees the car turn on, sometimes not. When it does, it eventually "forgets" that it's the car and re-classifies the load in the middle of a charging session as "Unknown"

 

[P85_DA]

I'm really unhappy with my sense unit. Overpromise and under-deliver. Nice idea, still beta. It forgets devices it already found, finds new devices that are just duplicates of things it already found, etc.

It used to track car charging well (after spending a month plus to find the car). Now it sometimes sees the car turn on, sometimes not. When it does, it eventually "forgets" that it's the car and re-classifies the load in the middle of a charging session as "Unknown"

Thanks u save me $300

 

[eprosenx]

I'm really unhappy with my sense unit. Overpromise and under-deliver. Nice idea, still beta. It forgets devices it already found, finds new devices that are just duplicates of things it already found, etc.

It used to track car charging well (after spending a month plus to find the car). Now it sometimes sees the car turn on, sometimes not. When it does, it eventually "forgets" that it's the car and re-classifies the load in the middle of a charging session as "Unknown"

Yes, I agree their device identification is a hot mess. I am not convinced it will ever work that well.

With that being said, I *love* my sense for the things I actually use it for. It has fantastic real time read outs of usage as well as a years worth of history at very fine granularity. I also use it to track my solar usage.

I have already found several weird things (like that the M3 did, or that different appliances did). Great for troubleshooting things and for learning about your house energy usage.

So yeah, if you expect the device identification to work well it might not be for you, but if you want it for the use cases described above then it is fantastic!

 

[tga]

I also use it to track my solar usage.

Usage or production? How well does that work? I'm debating throwing good money after bad and trying the solar add-on. Although Solar Edge has good data download support.

Mainly I wanted the Sense to track electricity usage by the car, and it fails miserably at that. I might just put an old school refurb utility meter on the circuit.

 

[eprosenx]

Usage or production? How well does that work? I'm debating throwing good money after bad and trying the solar add-on. Although Solar Edge has good data download support.

Mainly I wanted the Sense to track electricity usage by the car, and it fails miserably at that. I might just put an old school refurb utility meter on the circuit.

Sorry, I mistyped. It tracks my production.

I don't use it to add up totals or anything. Just to see how the system is performing throughout the day. I can see when my inverter "clips" (tops out), I have also noticed my system kicking offline on a bright sunny day a couple times which makes me wonder if my inverter is overheating or if grid voltage is having stability issues.

I would think that something like TeslaFi would be the best way to track the cars total power draw. Though to your point, a refurb meter would be the most accurate of course.

My inverter has a crap web interface and it was discontinued, so I have liked having that in the Sense.

I still hold out hope that Sense will be adding features (I wish they would ditch some of the machine learning focus and just do some non-machine learning stuff).

 

[Jdee2wheels]

FWIW, in this case if sticking with the 100a panel I might go with the Wall Connector and then have it wired up for at least a 50a breaker (probably even maybe a 60a breaker). Then you can set the rotary dial down low enough so as to not overload your panel per the NEC load calculations.

I would then perhaps get a "sense" unit to monitor your power usage. After looking at it for long enough, I might then gain confidence to be able to set the wall connector to draw at a higher rate if I determined there was no danger of overloading the 100a panel (or in case you eventually upgraded the 100a service or say deprecated some electrical appliance that allowed you to re-use that capacity for a car).

Eventually I’d like to swap the 14-30 plug out for a wall charger (it’s already wired with 6 gauge) but it was hard to justify spending the $500 for it, especially when the 14-30 with the UMC has been working perfectly for my needs.

 

[animorph]

If you put the Sense current sensors around the wires to the car charging circuit instead of the mains it should work perfectly for checking your car consumption.