Upgrade for 90 limited "A Packs" : Official answer from Jerome Guillen, VP WWSS TM

[brianman]

Tesla also told me I could store music on the on-board hard drive. Can't do that either. How is this different?

I would agree this is another area where they failed to deliver what was promised.

As for your question on the difference, generally...

There isn't one. People are still unhappy about this, just less vocally. Also, there isn't an "A" and "B" car situation regarding the media storage so that component of the discussion isn't present (yet?).


As for your question on the difference, personally...

Music storage wasn't a critical aspect of either the vehicle behavior or what I wanted out of it. XM radio is another thing on my "barely care" list.
The performance of the vehicle (motor/battery), range (battery), and recharge rate (battery/chargers/etc.) are primary aspects of the vehicle.
Furthermore, I can workaround the storage problem with USB keys and so forth. I can't just insert something in my frunk that will give me 120 or 135kW supercharging. It's a pretty significant difference.


Since someone mentioned it, I'll just add...

Vanity mirrors, sunshade, etc. These are slightly different as these were "promised" verbally at various venues and via email. They were never documented as features on the web site, part of the ordering process web pages, etc. As such, I always considered them vaporware until proven otherwise. But features that were listed on the product pages at the time the vehicle was ordered and were never officially cancelled are, IMO, at best "legally problematic" for Tesla if they continue with this pattern.

Examples that were published but vanished include more USB ports, "car as wifi hotspot" feature. Sadly, Audi (and others) are bringing this to market before Tesla. If I were Audi (and others), I'd rub that in Tesla's face a bit in their advertising (if they aren't already).

 

[David99]

I remember seeing the actual graph (people here posted it) of the charging progress at a Supercharger. Over a period of 40 min it only hits 120 kw for about 10 min. The rest is ramping up at the beginning and then it starts to taper already. If your battery is hot/cold or your state of charger is 30% or more the time you have full power is even lower or you actually never get 120 kw. I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but in many real world situations the difference between 90 kW and 120 kW is not significant.

As for lighted mirrors: It will come with the next firmware. As you open the mirror the main screen will switch to white and set the brightness to 100%. That should do the trick

 

[brianman]

I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but in many real world situations the difference between 90 kW and 120 kW is not significant.

Others have shown that in many real world situations it is significant. Further, some have shown that in most of their personal situations it's significant.

What you've said is kind of like saying "many numbers are even, so let's ignore the odd". I never recommend ignoring the odd. You get into all kinds of trouble that way. (Never ignore the even either. They can sneak up on you like a quiet neighbor that has a lot of weaponry in the basement.)

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I have a new pack and will be hitting the Grants pass SC on Friday Sat & Sunday. In February I recorded a couple of data sets from my A battery at this SC and will get some more to compare the 2 batteries on the same car at the same charge spot.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Not to mention that it can be up to 15-20 minutes slower per charge and there are concerns regarding faster degradation and reliability.

Hate to put such a fine point on this, but no, your car does not suddenly charge any "slower" than it did before. Your car charges exactly the same as it always did, and takes the same amount of time as it always did. The fact that the new superchargers are faster is a completely different point. You are not slower, you are the same. Newer cars may charge faster if they are the only car charging, but that's not the intent behind raising the supercharger limit. Tesla has already stated that upgrades to 120 kW and higher are for to allow more cars to be charged in a day, not necessarily for a single vehicle to charge faster. The faster superchargers are able to provide a higher charge to each vehicle in congested situations, and that is the reason behind the upgrades. The reason is not so that an individual car, at an otherwise empty supercharger, can charge at a full 120 kW or 135 kW.

With regard to "concerns regarding faster degradation and reliability", please point to any hard facts that you have to support this issue. Otherwise you are just spreading misinformation and trying to scare other owners. Version 5.9 of the firmware resolved most, if not all, range drop issues. I personally gained 23 miles at a 50% SOC, but nothing was wrong with my battery because I've charged to 301 miles before on a full charge.

Be happy. Your car works as designed and has all the features that Tesla represented to you at the time you bought it. If you felt that Tesla promised 120 kW supercharging to you AFTER you bought your car, well, that happened AFTER you bought it. You can't go back in time and pretend that a promise made after you purchased your vehicle would have changed your decision to purchase the vehicle, and before that particular promise was ever made.

 

[FlasherZ]

In short: Tesla indicated as early as 2011 (read: before anyone took delivery of Model S) that the vehicle would support 120 kW supercharging -- without any hardware changes to the vehicle. When that later proved to be incorrect, they were at best shady about not coming clean with the failure to follow-through. There were several points along this timeline that Tesla could have corrected course rather than letting owners discovered that they were sold something different than they actually got.

I've read most of the other thread, so apologies if there's a pointer in there already... can you provide me with a link to where that was said? I only recall a statement that the cars could do Supercharging, not any specific numbers.

When I did have an "A" pack, I did not believe that I had any particular entitlement to 120 kW, because I have no recollection of 120 kW ever being promised to me. I certainly don't recall anything being said in 2011. I do recall Elon saying during the launch event in 9/12 that Supercharging would be at 90 kW initially and that the technology had the potential to reach 120 kW, but he did not say that all cars had the capability. If there is an indication out there, I might consider the "promises left unkept" angle -- but right now I don't believe there was any promise.

(Yes, I realize that with my pack replacement I have mooted any issue for me personally. That said, even when I had an "A" pack I didn't have any level of furor over it.)

 

[mknox]

This sounds like the response I got from him when I asked him if Tesla would honor George Bs commitment to retrofit our cars with lighted vanity mirrors. His response was that 'unfortunately this is not on the current product calendar'. Has anyone seen lighted mirrors yet? I would much rather see just a yes or no to such questions.

My car has the wiring harness for the lighted vanity mirrors behind the microphone grille (plan to use it for my dash cam) but no lighted mirrors. I understand newer cars no longer have the 12v wiring harness up there any longer, so I'd say the chances of lights are close to zero.

- - - Updated - - -

Be happy. Your car works as designed and has all the features that Tesla represented to you at the time you bought it.

While true, one of the other things I bought from Tesla was the pre-paid Service Plan which claimed (at the time) was the only way to get software and hardware upgrades. Since lots of folks without the Plan are getting smaller hardware upgrades anyway (door handles, defroster grilles) I thought I might be entitled to some of the more significant upgrades as per my Plan.

 

[brianman]

I've read most of the other thread, so apologies if there's a pointer in there already... can you provide me with a link to where that was said? I only recall a statement that the cars could do Supercharging, not any specific numbers.

I'm having trouble with my search engines today. Apparently they all suck with doing date-specific criteria.

The closest I got on a short search regarding supercharger references in 2011 is this:
Tesla announces Model S performance version

Fast charging and a 320-mile Model S also announced
Elon Musk had a couple of other surprises up his sleeve at the Model S unveiling, one being that the car will be chargable at a rate faster than any other electric vehicle out there right now. Capable of taking a massive 90kW charge, the 300-mile car can be 50% charged in just 30 minutes, meaning longer distance pure electric driving could become much more feasible should the right network of rapid chargers be created.

So supercharging was being discussed at least that early. And the announcement from Oct 2nd was referenced in the 2nd video here
Revealing Model S Beta | Blog | Tesla Motors
where he talks about "yesterday" announcing the performance vehicle.

My recollection is that even in those early discussions of the 90kW supercharging capability, Elon continued to emphasize plans to move to 120kW and that no physical changes would be required on the cars. Elon's "magic of OTA updates" reminds me of Gates's "magic of software" phrase that sounded sparkly once or twice, but after a while begins to dull.


Generally, though, we probably have similar recollections FlasherZ but I don't give them leeway on this one as much as you seem to. They are continually relying on "loose promises" with "unresolved delivery" of those promises. I don't want that from Tesla. I can get that from used car dealerships on every street corner.

Promise crisply, and deliver. I shouldn't need a lawyer to parse the language every time Tesla has something cool to tell me about.

More specifically: Can you recall a single official announcement that makes it unabashedly clear that at least one customer Model S is not capable of 120kW supercharging? No. Why is this? Is it because Tesla is hiding it? Is it because they are ashamed to admit that the bold proclamations of the website have an invisible asterisk ("only some cars")? Be open, be clear; stop screwing around.

 

[bluetinc]

Flasher, Elon promised 120kW to be rolled out to "all customers" during a number of speeches. There have been a number of arguments on TMC over the exact definition of "all" and "customers"...


Taking the exact specs of 120kW vs 135kW etc. out of the discussion... I did have many conversations about the time it takes to Supercharge and that it was taking longer than was originally talked about. I was told that Tesla was working on a remedy to that that would be a software upgrade. The exacts of that, 120kW vs. a modified taper curve were a little fuzzy, but the implication was that my car would be a part of this update. My service center believed it would be a part of this update months after the update came out....

I continuously get asked how long it takes to fill up my car. My answer now is, about an hour for 200 miles, from 0. I don't believe that anyone with a B battery feels like charging theirs from 0 to 200 and then letting me know that they consider the extra time they would have to hang out to hit the hour mark is insignificant...

I've read most of the other thread, so apologies if there's a pointer in there already... can you provide me with a link to where that was said? I only recall a statement that the cars could do Supercharging, not any specific numbers.

When I did have an "A" pack, I did not believe that I had any particular entitlement to 120 kW, because I have no recollection of 120 kW ever being promised to me. I certainly don't recall anything being said in 2011. I do recall Elon saying during the launch event in 9/12 that Supercharging would be at 90 kW initially and that the technology had the potential to reach 120 kW, but he did not say that all cars had the capability. If there is an indication out there, I might consider the "promises left unkept" angle -- but right now I don't believe there was any promise.

(Yes, I realize that with my pack replacement I have mooted any issue for me personally. That said, even when I had an "A" pack I didn't have any level of furor over it.)

 

[FlasherZ]

Flasher, Elon promised 120kW to be rolled out to "all customers" during a number of speeches. There have been a number of arguments on TMC over the exact definition of "all" and "customers"...

I'm looking for a documented promise. I don't recall one and I've followed it closely. Do you have a link to a speech where it has that documented process?

 

[apacheguy]

Hate to put such a fine point on this, but no, your car does not suddenly charge any "slower" than it did before. Your car charges exactly the same as it always did, and takes the same amount of time as it always did. The fact that the new superchargers are faster is a completely different point. You are not slower, you are the same. Newer cars may charge faster if they are the only car charging, but that's not the intent behind raising the supercharger limit. Tesla has already stated that upgrades to 120 kW and higher are for to allow more cars to be charged in a day, not necessarily for a single vehicle to charge faster. The faster superchargers are able to provide a higher charge to each vehicle in congested situations, and that is the reason behind the upgrades. The reason is not so that an individual car, at an otherwise empty supercharger, can charge at a full 120 kW or 135 kW.

With regard to "concerns regarding faster degradation and reliability", please point to any hard facts that you have to support this issue. Otherwise you are just spreading misinformation and trying to scare other owners. Version 5.9 of the firmware resolved most, if not all, range drop issues. I personally gained 23 miles at a 50% SOC, but nothing was wrong with my battery because I've charged to 301 miles before on a full charge.

Disagree on all points.

A) My car charges slower compared to what was originally promised.
B) Nobody has data to support the claims of faster degradation and reliability. That's why I said "concerns" and did NOT make a factual statement. No, I'm not scaring other owners since no new cars ship with A packs. Please see this thread in which I have documented a number of early production/Sig cars that have had failed A packs:

Main Battery Replacement

Failure rate among Sig owners alone is > 1%, and quite possibly much more considering many are not members of TMC or choose not to report their pack failure.

 

[dsm363]

If you want to parse words 120kW charging is being rolled out even to A packs. They still benefit from faster charging when two cars are using same bank. If they said 'all cars ever produced will be capable of charging at 120kW rate' then that is different.
Yes it is disappointing and sucks but the car still works just like when it was delivered and this wouldn't be a cheap 'fix' for Tesla. As long as Tesla provides people the option to upgrade to a new pack and then pay some prorated difference that should keep Tesla and the upset A pack people happy.

 

[bluetinc]

If you are looking for video of Elon saying this, I'm sure I or others can dig it up, I know bc it's come up before in the other threads. If you are looking for a signed document, then we all know that doesn't exist, just like it hasn't for every other item Tesla has promised (delivered or not).

Peter

I'm looking for a documented promise. I don't recall one and I've followed it closely. Do you have a link to a speech where it has that documented process?

 

[FlasherZ]

I'm having trouble with my search engines today. Apparently they all suck with doing date-specific criteria.

I share the same concern with you as I was trying to search for any clues.

The closest I got on a short search regarding supercharger references in 2011 is this:
Tesla announces Model S performance version

I do recall Supercharging being discussed that early, but I don't recall 120 kW being mentioned, much less promised. As I said, I do recall that at the Supercharger announcement I first heard it could go up to 120 kW in the future, but I don't have any evidence of a documented statement saying that all cars could do it or would get that functionality.

Generally, though, we probably have similar recollections FlasherZ but I don't give them leeway on this one as much as you seem to. They are continually relying on "loose promises" with "unresolved delivery" of those promises. I don't want that from Tesla. I can get that from used car dealerships on every street corner.

I agree with you if you can show me a documented case where it is said that all existing cars will get the step up to 120 kW. I just don't recall any, and I haven't found one yet. Until that happens, it's like the parking sensors. I don't have it because the hardware wasn't on the cars.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are looking for video of Elon saying this, I'm sure I or others can dig it up, I know bc it's come up before in the other threads. If you are looking for a signed document, then we all know that doesn't exist, just like it hasn't for every other item Tesla has promised (delivered or not).

Peter

Video, web page, whatever - any documented evidence that even hints that every existing car gets the capability. I recall Elon saying the technology was going to 120 kW, but I don't recall the "...and every car today gets to take advantage of it" part that I'm looking for.

 

[brianman]

Until that happens, it's like the parking sensors. I don't have it because the hardware wasn't on the cars.

It's not at all like parking sensors. The parking sensors issue involves an absence of componentry. It's not like my Signature car has no battery whereas new cars do have a battery.

Also, even if you go with your parking sensors comparison: Owners have been offered a parking sensor retrofit option (with cost information). No such luck for A->B pack conversions. Hell, even the Battery Replacement Option that was announced in November 2012 is an undelivered promise if you want to go down that road.
2013 Model S Price Increase | Blog | Tesla Motors

I've said more than once that if they would deal with the BPO then many of us A owners would be probably be somewhat calmed if the language in that BPO would assert that at least 120 kWh supercharging support would be active after the new pack is installed.

But they keep dropping the ball. Over and over again. On the one yard line. It's like watching bad football.

 

[bluetinc]

I'll find a video link tonight, but as I said originally, Elon said "all customers" during a number of speeches. There have been a number of arguments on TMC over the exact definition of "all" and "customers", and the one thing clear is that we don't all agree what that means. Some think that it covers cars moving forward not ones already built (AR). Others feel that because the car next to you and before you charged faster, it was rolled out to you (dsm363), etc. etc.


Peter

Video, web page, whatever - any documented evidence that even hints that every existing car gets the capability. I recall Elon saying the technology was going to 120 kW, but I don't recall the "...and every car today gets to take advantage of it" part that I'm looking for.

 

[dsm363]

I get why people are disappointed and I have an A pack in my car too. Elon's wording was open to interpretation. I thought as well my car would be upgraded to 120kWh with the new stations. Sure I'm disappointed but my car still works the same as delivered and there are a number of other features delivered in newer cars if love to have as well. I knew getting an early car things were going to progress rapidly and I'd miss out on some newer features.
As long as Tesla allows people to pay for an upgraded pack and turn their old one in for some prorated amount that should at least be considered fair. We will have to see what they do. As far as I know no explicit written promises were made. CEOs and companies often make promises (Tesla more than others) that deal with the future and their understanding of what is coming down the line. Maybe Elon really did think they could roll out 120kW charging to all cars but found out later that wasn't possible. I doubt he was trying to trick people that had already bought the car. Tesla should be more careful about blanket promises of features unless they are certain they can deliver.

 

[brianman]

As long as Tesla allows people to pay for an upgraded pack and turn their old one in for some prorated amount that should at least be considered fair. We will have to see what they do.

How long do you think is reasonable to wait for this option and for the BPO? My car is over 16% into its battery warranty.

 

[Andrew]

When we bought (and took delivery of) our car, the website said quite clearly that we'd get a 50% charge in 30 minutes. Only months later did that change that to 20 minutes. Our A-battery is certainly capable of the 30 minute charge, so I'm quite happy with that and I don't think Tesla owes me a new pack.

However, I discovered shortly after delivery that the Superchargers don't always provide full power (even to get the 30 minute charge) because of the way they work in pairs, and that was a disappointment because it was definitely not made clear. But that's a failure of the stations themselves, not of the battery. Ramping each pair up to 120kW or 135kW will get us closer to the 50% in 30 minutes more consistently.

So it seems to me that the solution isn't changing out my battery pack. It's getting the superchargers to be able to charge two cars at once at full speed.

 

[apacheguy]

Video, web page, whatever - any documented evidence that even hints that every existing car gets the capability. I recall Elon saying the technology was going to 120 kW, but I don't recall the "...and every car today gets to take advantage of it" part that I'm looking for.

I believe you are correct about this. IIRC, Elon himself never said "every car on the road will charge at 120 kW, PERIOD." He beat around the bush in his public appearances in which he hinted at 120 kW a number of times without mentioning any caveats, therefore giving many of us false hope. That's the big problem I have with what Elon has said. It's misleading at the least.

However, that's not to say that Tesla corporate is off the hook. Ownership made this claim to a 90-kW limited owner before 5.x was released:

1) Currently our Super Chargers have an output lower than its full potential. When our Engineering team in charge of Super Chargers are ready to increase the output it should increase power output to an ideal potential of additional 30% (speculation and not fact at this time). This upgrade will likely come inform of firmware and hardware (not on the Model S but on the Super Charger units) but details will likely not become public, but if it does it will be available on our web site or made public by Elon Musk.

Here, TM states that this is purely a firmware driven change requiring no additional hardware on the car side. We now know this not to be the case.