Upgrade to FSD $4,000

[Knightshade]

It checks to see that you've touched the wheel at some point, or nags to do it, but during the change your hands do not need to be on the wheel.

This video demonstrates it better:

See: 3:38 and 6:55

I mean, except they do need to be on the wheel because it's explicitly an L2 system that explicitly states your hands are required on the wheel.


A regular car with no automation at all can drive straight for a while with no hands on the wheel if the alignment is good- that doesn't make it a self driving car at all though does it?

Well, that’s kinda my point. You can get away with it because it’s capable of actually doing it.

See above.

You can steer with your feet too- doesn't mean it's a good idea.

‘Incredibly’ is an exaggeration, IMO. But only time will tell.

I mean- it'll currently run straight into parked firetrucks. At speed.

Seems pretty far from ready for no supervision to me.

Also from the current website:




Claiming at least twice as good as the average human driver isn’t trivial.

Yeah- they said it had all the HW needed with AP2.0

Turns out that wasn't true.

Then they said it had all the HW needed with AP2.5. Also not true.


But now you believe it?

Why?

My mistake. Since summon was available on the model S and X on ap1, I assumed it was rolled into EAP.

AP1 was a bit weird at the end... they did intend to do more with it- but after the split with Mobileeye they no longer had access to much of the source code so that was pretty much it.

There is no ambiguity in the name Enhanced Autopilot. Autopilot is and has always been about autonomous driving hence the name

Again, 1000% wrong.

Autopilot on aircraft is not autonomous flying

It's a pilot aid explicitly requiring constant supervision and oversight.


Once again you're projecting your imagination onto a name- instead of looking at the actual specific listed features and intent.

EAP was never, ever, intended to be more than an L2 driver aid system.

FSD was the system that went beyond that into real autonomous driving.


Perhaps it'd help if I quote you Tesla themselves describing the intent of the original Autopilot?

Tesla Autopilot functions like the systems that airplane pilots use when conditions are clear. The driver is still responsible for, and ultimately in control of, the car.

So no, AP was never ever intended to be autonomous driving

Ever.

Not even once.

Enhanced doesn’t change that except to denote ‘additions and improvements’ to that core function.

EXACTLY.

And that core function was never autonomous driving

It was driver aids with the driver always being responsible for, and in control of, the car.

Regulatory approval and liability would be major reasons. They can't just release that level of automation without possible repercussions. That's partly why we're getting it in little scraps at a time. And it gives them time to test it as well. One size will not fit all.

Regulatory approval is red herring nonsense.

L5 auto-driving cars are already legal. Right now. Today. In a BUNCH of US states.


Nobody's capable of actually building or selling one- but if they were it'd require zero additional approve in those states. RIGHT NOW.


A bunch of states have laws on the books- right this moment- that basically say "Any auto-driving system that can follow all the same laws as a human is legal to drive in our state- no human needed"

 

[GoSharks]

Again, 1000% wrong.

Autopilot on aircraft is not autonomous flying

It's a pilot aid explicitly requiring constant supervision and oversight.

Once again you're projecting your imagination onto a name- instead of looking at the actual specific listed features and intent.

You’re guilty of the same thing though - autopilot isn’t just used in the context of flying. You’ve never heard of autopilot being used in the context of a person?

Definition of AUTOPILOT


: a state or condition in which activity or behavior is regulated automatically in a predetermined or instinctive manner //doing his job on automatic pilot

Almost as if on automatic pilot, Pike passed to Gilyard for seven yards to the Cincinnati 46

Definition of AUTOMATIC PILOT

 

[Knightshade]

You’re guilty of the same thing though - autopilot isn’t just used in the context of flying. You’ve never heard of autopilot being used in the context of a person?

Except I'm not doing that.

Instead of picking the definitions I "like" I was directly quoting Tesla as to what definition they are using


Here, again, is Teslas own description of the feature-

Tesla Autopilot functions like the systems that airplane pilots use when conditions are clear. The driver is still responsible for, and ultimately in control of, the car. What's more, you always have intuitive access to the information your car is using to inform its actions

 

[john5520]

I mean, except they do need to be on the wheel because it's explicitly an L2 system that explicitly states your hands are required on the wheel.

I’m not arguing against your assertion that it’s an L2 system. All I’m basically saying is, if the nags weren’t there, it could complete the change on its own without any driver intervention.

A regular car with no automation at all can drive straight for a while with no hands on the wheel if the alignment is good- that doesn't make it a self driving car at all though does it?

Except, we’re talking about a car being able to decide on its own to change lanes based on a predefined condition, check that the coast is clear, and if so, initiate the lane change while avoiding other cars, complete the change, center itself, and still continue along on a predefined route. All without driver intervention.

Apples and oranges.

I mean- it'll currently run straight into parked firetrucks. At speed.

Seems pretty far from ready for no supervision to me.

Even if these mishaps never occurred, would it ever truly evolve into an unsupervised system? I doubt it.

Yeah- they said it had all the HW needed with AP2.0

Turns out that wasn't true.

Then they said it had all the HW needed with AP2.5. Also not true.

But now you believe it?

Why?

I believe level 3 is capable with the current hardware. With it, they can probably achieve what’s in that video. Level 4 and 5? Besides the hardware limitation, I don’t see it based on the current SEA definitions.

Again, 1000% wrong.
Autopilot on aircraft is not autonomous flying
It's a pilot aid explicitly requiring constant supervision and oversight.

Once again you're projecting your imagination onto a name- instead of looking at the actual specific listed features and intent.
EAP was never, ever, intended to be more than an L2 driver aid system.
FSD was the system that went beyond that into real autonomous driving.
Perhaps it'd help if I quote you Tesla themselves describing the intent of the original Autopilot?

So no, AP was never ever intended to be autonomous driving
Ever.
Not even once.

Ok, AP was intended to perform automated driving which is the correct term (although autonomous and automated are used interchangeably quite often). And according to the SAE levels of driving automation, it fits the description of L2:

https://www.sae.org/news/press-room/2018/12/sae-international-releases-updated-visual-chart-for-its-“levels-of-driving-automation”-standard-for-self-driving-vehicles

Wrong terminology aside, my point still stands.

Regulatory approval is red herring nonsense.
L5 auto-driving cars are already legal. Right now. Today. In a BUNCH of US states.
Nobody's capable of actually building or selling one- but if they were it'd require zero additional approve in those states. RIGHT NOW.

A bunch of states have laws on the books- right this moment- that basically say "Any auto-driving system that can follow all the same laws as a human is legal to drive in our state- no human needed"

L5 may be legal in a bunch of states, but is level 3? You even said nobody’s cable of building or selling L5 – that would include Tesla. And I agree for the most part. Waymo already has driverless cars in testing, but even the CEO has a negative outlook regarding level 5:

https://macdailynews.com/2019/01/07/waymo-ceo-level-5-fully-autonomous-vehicles- will-never-exist/

Still, I’m optimistic they’ll come close, but true Level 5 would more than likely require supporting infrastructure, I think. Coupled with advanced AI, someone might actually pull it off. When is the question.[/quote]

 

[Sameer]

I too got a 4000 upgrade option to get FSD from EAP. I bought it, as a gesture to support the work Elon is doing. I really believe in his cause, and think world is better off without ICE cars. I am also a shareholder.
I fully understand I will get nothing significantly tangible capability (in my opinion) in my car over EAP with this investment.
Will try to schedule a HW3 upgrade appointment after COVID passes off. Stay safe everyone.

 

[Knightshade]

I’m not arguing against your assertion that it’s an L2 system. All I’m basically saying is, if the nags weren’t there, it could complete the change on its own without any driver intervention.

"could"? sure.

Could do so reliably and safely enough you don't ever NEED the nags and immediate driver supervision? Obviously not. Otherwise we'd have that.

See also the many "AP tried to kill me!" threads on here.

Except, we’re talking about a car being able to decide on its own to change lanes based on a predefined condition, check that the coast is clear, and if so, initiate the lane change while avoiding other cars, complete the change, center itself, and still continue along on a predefined route. All without driver intervention.

Yeah it doesn't really do that though- it still checks for driver attention before doing it- because it KNOWS it's not reliable enough to never need it.

Even if these mishaps never occurred, would it ever truly evolve into an unsupervised system? I doubt it.

I mean- that's literally the stated goal of original FSD.

I believe level 3 is capable with the current hardware. With it, they can probably achieve what’s in that video. Level 4 and 5? Besides the hardware limitation, I don’t see it based on the current SEA definitions.

L3 means supervision isn't required. A driver needs to be conscious- and available to take over eventually if required- but they're NOT expected to be supervising the car moment or moment or monitoring the driving environment at all.


So in 2 paragraphs you said you doubt it'll ever evolve into an unsupervised system and that they can probably evolve it into an unsupervised system.

Ok, AP was intended to perform automated driving which is the correct term (although autonomous and automated are used interchangeably quite often). And according to the SAE levels of driving automation, it fits the description of L2:

https://www.sae.org/news/press-room/2018/12/sae-international-releases-updated-visual-chart-for-its-“levels-of-driving-automation”-standard-for-self-driving-vehicles

Wrong terminology aside, my point still stands.

Nope. L2 means specific aspects of the driving task are automated, not that driving in general is.

That's in fact the major jump between L2 and L3.

L0 through L2- the human driver is ultimately responsible for the dynamic driving task... and the car may offer some systems to aid or support specific parts of that task.

L3 and up the human IS NOT driving- the cars systems are.

It's in the top line of your own chart.


Then a little further down it points out ALL the L0 through L2 stuff are "driver support features"

But the same things under L3 through L5 are AUTOMATED driving features.

L5 may be legal in a bunch of states, but is level 3?

... yes?

Because the laws generally say 'As long as the car can follow the same laws/rules as humans, it's ok to drive'

so in case of L3, the car driving in places it can is fine since it'd need to do that... and then it'd alert the driver for stuff like (say it's L3 highway only) "Hey dude, I'm exiting here in a minute or two- get ready to take over at the end of the off-ramp" and the human would be driving after that.

You even said nobody’s cable of building or selling L5 – that would include Tesla. And I agree for the most part. Waymo already has driverless cars in testing, but even the CEO has a negative outlook regarding level 5:

Yeah- Waymos current stuff is intended as L4.... "driver-less as long as you stay in this one, specific, heavily mapped and perfect weather area of a suburb in Arizona" for example.

 

[TomB985]

Can you guys take this elsewhere? Tangentially off-topic to the thread, and makes it extremely hard to follow.

Thanks!

 

[JBT66]

Can you guys take this elsewhere? Tangentially off-topic to the thread, and makes it extremely hard to follow.

Thanks!

Agreed. I understand y’all are passionate. But it doesn’t belong here. We are talking about upgrading to FSD for $4K not what level autonomy FSD is.

 

[john5520]

[QUOTE="Knightshade, post: 4643429, member: 63377"]"could"? sure.[/quote]

That's my point.

Could do so reliably and safely enough you don't ever NEED the nags and immediate driver supervision? Obviously not. Otherwise we'd have that.

Was never my argument. Just that it was capable of doing on it's own. I didn't say it was capable of doing it without ever needing driver supervision. Just that it's a step forward.

Yeah it doesn't really do that though- it still checks for driver attention before doing it- because it KNOWS it's not reliable enough to never need it.

Again, completely different argument. No one is saying it's reliable enough at this point to not ever need it.

I mean- that's literally the stated goal of original FSD.

I know what the goal was. I'm questioning whether it can really come to fruition.

So in 2 paragraphs you said you doubt it'll ever evolve into an unsupervised system and that they can probably evolve it into an unsupervised system.

I said truly unsupervised. As in, you never ever have to worry about it. And probably means they 'might', not that they will. Nothing about my answer was assertive, on purpose.

Nope. L2 means specific aspects of the driving task are automated, not that driving in general is.

That's in fact the major jump between L2 and L3.

I'm not sure what you're arguing against here? I corrected my use of the word autonomous then I said AP is is level 2 system according to the SAE link. If you think not, then specify.

L0 through L2- the human driver is ultimately responsible for the dynamic driving task...
and the car may offer some systems to aid or support specific parts of that task.

Agreed. Never disagreed.

L3 and up the human IS NOT driving- the cars systems are.

It's in the top line of your own chart.

I know. Where did I say AP was L3?

Then a little further down it points out ALL the L0 through L2 stuff are "driver support features"
But the same things under L3 through L5 are AUTOMATED driving features.

In total agreement. I never said otherwise.

... yes?
Because the laws generally say 'As long as the car can follow the same laws/rules as humans, it's ok to drive'
so in case of L3, the car driving in places it can is fine since it'd need to do that... and then it'd alert the driver for stuff like (say it's L3 highway only) "Hey dude, I'm exiting here in a minute or two- get ready to take over at the end of the off-ramp" and the human would be driving after that.

You're making an assumption about the laws. A logical one, but they're usually not that simple. I can't comment. I need to research them.

 

[john5520]

Agreed. I understand y’all are passionate. But it doesn’t belong here. We are talking about upgrading to FSD for $4K not what level autonomy FSD is.

Understood, and yes, wading through this would a be chore for anyone not caught up in the bickering. I said my last and is totally OK with the mod moving it somewhere, or deleting my posts to clean up the thread.

 

[yerEVan]

Holy Pee Pee match Batman.

Anyway. So if you have AP, which was not available when i purchased in 2018... and i paid 5k. What is FSD option now if you have AP that came with the car? 7k still? So you’re saving 3k? I know this sounds stupid, but with all this yellow liquid flying around, i kinda forgot.

 

[moojimmy]

What's the real benefits of the FSD at this point? Everyone speaks the $4k is a great deal like it's $40 but $4k isn't cheap IMO for something we don't have a full use of it. I get more functionality is being release and for the long haul and based on the current trend the price will definitely go up. But spending $4k now with minimal usage doesn't seem to be that appealing. I could buy some Tesla stocks when it comes down with that $4k and probably make about 1-2k in few months with the way market trends.

My app also showing the FSD upgrade is $4k, but I've been debating as well if it's worth it.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

I think it depends on how long you plan to keep current car. If I was leasing, would not buy. I paid cash and plan on keeping till it dies or I die. So paying to upgrade was fine.

 

[Knightshade]

What's the real benefits of the FSD at this point?

For whom?

For EAP owners- nothing other than the HW3 upgrade and more visualizations right now. Very shortly there'll be some L2 version of stop sign and stop light actions included... and then reverse summon at least later this year. MAYBE some L2 version of city street driving eventually.


For basic AP owners- all the features of EAP they don't have today (Nav on AP, auto lane change, self-parking, basic and advanced summon, etc...)

Holy Pee Pee match Batman.

Anyway. So if you have AP, which was not available when i purchased in 2018... and i paid 5k. What is FSD option now if you have AP that came with the car? 7k still? So you’re saving 3k? I know this sounds stupid, but with all this yellow liquid flying around, i kinda forgot.

I'm not entirely clear what you're asking here.


But pre-march-2019 your options were:

Nothing- $0
EAP- $5000
FSD- $3000
(both of which cost more than that if you bought them after delivery)


Then EAP went away- and they had basic AP which initially was $3000 and FSD was $5000- so still 8k total.

Then shortly after they made basic AP "included" with new cars, but raised the car price $2000.... and FSD became $6000.

Which went up to $7000 after enhanced summon came out.

And is going up to $8000 in a couple months when the stopsign/stoplight stuff rolls out.

(and probably higher still with reverse summon, and eventually city street driving)

 

[JBT66]

Has there been any reports from AP owners with seeing a discounted rate? $7K for me.

 

[TomB985]

Has there been any reports from AP owners with seeing a discounted rate? $7K for me.

Does your car have EAP features? The OP and I were in a unique situation that we only paid for autopilot but had EAP features from the very beginning. Until two weeks ago, my Tesla account insisted I only had standard autopilot, but my car would automatically change lanes, NOA, and Summon.

The discount showed up when my Tesla account stated that I had EAP. This was all an error on Tesla's part, so I doubt you will see it in less your car was confused as mine was.

 

[JBT66]

No bought AP during the sale and only have AP features. Kick my self for not getting FSD for $3K at the time, but not to hard.

Does your car have EAP features? The OP and I were in a unique situation that we only paid for autopilot but had EAP features from the very beginning. Until two weeks ago, my Tesla account insisted I only had standard autopilot, but my car would automatically change lanes, NOA, and Summon.

The discount showed up when my Tesla account stated that I had EAP. This was all an error on Tesla's part, so I doubt you will see it in less your car was confused as mine was.

 

[TomB985]

No bought AP during the sale and only have AP features. Kick my self for not getting FSD for $3K at the time, but not to hard.

I don't think FSD will become a reality for awhile, but my health situation makes it worth a lot more to me than most others. I would not have sprung for $7000, though… A guy has to have his limits.

 

[john5520]

Things are happening:

Former Tesla Autopilot Engineer Hints At How Much FSD Will Improve On Third Row Podcast

Interesting stuff! Looks like they'll finally be able to take advantage of HW3.

 

[ElectricLee]

Lets see if other modern EV’s even offer software upgrades from no smart driving features to full self driving without buying a whole new car.

I am so glad Tesla has an option no matter the cost.