I completely agree...I don't understand the nay sayers on fsd when a wreck...or deadly accident costs more than 7 or 10K... How could you even put a price on it? I won't doubt that at some point in the near future all cars will be required to have fsd, and manual driving would be illegal.
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Upgrade to FSD before increase?
- Thread starter robl45
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I completely agree...I don't understand the nay sayers on fsd when a wreck...or deadly accident costs more than 7 or 10K... How could you even put a price on it? I won't doubt that at some point in the near future all cars will be required to have fsd, and manual driving would be illegal.
... and that's what has to change. The lines between software and hardware are blurred. The prevailing perception of software as a throw-in or being valueless is the problem. It isn't.
And just FYI - hardware can be transferred too, but it involves wrenches and screwdrivers. Just a matter of how much effort you want to put in.
Im not a nay sayer but I have high expectations before plopping down such a large amount of money. Im not putting 5-10k down for mediocrity. The boring part of driving is already covered with regular AP. Until I can take a nap and not baby the car, then I'll consider. All it takes is a few accidents caused by FSD for regulators to completely shut it down.
Im just hoping this rewrite fixes all phantom braking - because if they can't how do you expect me to trust FSD on a more complex road?
For me, the subscription will likely be the way I go. That 2k I couldve bought FSD with (since I have enhanced AP), I have invested it instead and made more than what the upgrade costs now. What would have it given me since that time? The mediocre ability to stop and go at lights? eh. To those of you who believe that FSD will be safer than you driving yourself anytime soon are dreamers. Thats likely a ways off and also a ways off before insurance companies will recognize FSD as being safe, if anything they would increase premiums based on Autopilot's imperfect history.
Im just hoping this rewrite fixes all phantom braking - because if they can't how do you expect me to trust FSD on a more complex road?
For me, the subscription will likely be the way I go. That 2k I couldve bought FSD with (since I have enhanced AP), I have invested it instead and made more than what the upgrade costs now. What would have it given me since that time? The mediocre ability to stop and go at lights? eh. To those of you who believe that FSD will be safer than you driving yourself anytime soon are dreamers. Thats likely a ways off and also a ways off before insurance companies will recognize FSD as being safe, if anything they would increase premiums based on Autopilot's imperfect history.
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Fernand
Active Member
I don't want to ascribe ill will. But I also doubt you manually drive within a 1/2 inch tolerance. If you look at the clips on youtube, in the last 2 years NOA has gotten smoother and smoother, and does not oscillate wildly. Some updates are smoother than others, but my car doesn't do anything like that at this point in development. It did "hunt" at first, but that's years ago.
I would tend to think your car, and the cars of other cases like yours, has some sort of subtle difference, and that's leading to vastly different experiences. Before Covid, did you take it in for a ride with a tech to check it? One time last year when I was unsure about a specific lane change, you bet I took the car and the video in, left the car for over a week.
@ranova -- AP's imperfect history? You mean the handful of cases NTSB is/was looking at? Do you know how many "perfect" human drivers die in manually driven accidents in the US? Over 100 every day.
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Don't have the P model, but agree with the rest of the post. Love EAP, but NOA doesn't work for me on local congested SoCal highways. I have no doubt NOA will get better, but I already have it with EAP. Plus, since I'm now forcibly retired, I don't drive as much and can easily navigate the local streets.
The $8K or $10K full automation package are viable choices for people who buy a car now. They can FINANCE it, like other options, like the dual-motor long range option, or the Performance option. For the Tesla buyer who "just drives", who could be happy with SR+ range and RWD, adding more automation to reduce fatigue is a practical option -> $46k. (A skilled speed/power driver might be more of a manual only Model P buyer).
It's tougher for people who already have a 1 or 2 year old Model 3, because $8K, let alone $10k, in CASH is more painful.
I think that's where the "subscription" idea comes from - as a way to finance adding automation. People who think they will beat Tesla by turning FSD on and off day by day, or week by week for this or that trip, are probably dreaming. I don't think that will ever come to pass. Why not enable the rear seat heaters only when your kids are in them?
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I don't think its beating Tesla, its just a reality that many people won't need it most of the time. For me standard autopilot is fine for most things, but on a long trip, FSD if it worked would be nice, I'd be up for paying a reasonable amount to use it for certain times.
I don't need to look at YouTube clips. I can just get in my car and experience it first hand. If NOA wants to make a highway transition, it will aggressively swerve the car into the exit lane at its earliest opportunity, then oscillate back and forth a couple times to re-center. Any passengers in the vehicle not aware of the maniacal computer in charge would either scream in terror or at the very least say, "Dude, what the heck are you doing??"
It did it as recently as last week. My car's software is up to date.
Spirited debate.
We all have our own perspective. Mine in upgrading to HW3 is looking toward the future. Robo Taxi? My thought is to have a vehicle that can shuttle me around when I reach geezerhood.
I don't want my kids to be forced to have the "We gotta get the keys from Dad" intervention. If it will do that for me it's worth every penny.
Also, my experience with autopilot has been smooth, with no ping-pong between the lines. I know the technology is in its infancy so I'm a little more forgiving for any transgressions, but there are very few.
Regarding the change in laws and insurance companies for FSD, data will make that decision. Traffic fatalities coast to coast on an annual basis is like a loaded 747 crashing each week. When the statistics show autonomous driving is a magnitude safer than an emotional easily distracted primate, I think the tune will change.
Driving down the highway in traffic is akin to flying in formation. Imagine when all cars are networked, aware of each other and their intention, people will stop dying on the roads. I (probably) won't live to see it, but given the calculation speed of a computer, I think the bar to out-perform a human is fairly low.
Right now my car has 8 cameras that don't even blink, and with the Radar and sonic sensors, it's already more aware of the road than I am.
We all have our own perspective. Mine in upgrading to HW3 is looking toward the future. Robo Taxi? My thought is to have a vehicle that can shuttle me around when I reach geezerhood.
I don't want my kids to be forced to have the "We gotta get the keys from Dad" intervention. If it will do that for me it's worth every penny.
Also, my experience with autopilot has been smooth, with no ping-pong between the lines. I know the technology is in its infancy so I'm a little more forgiving for any transgressions, but there are very few.
Regarding the change in laws and insurance companies for FSD, data will make that decision. Traffic fatalities coast to coast on an annual basis is like a loaded 747 crashing each week. When the statistics show autonomous driving is a magnitude safer than an emotional easily distracted primate, I think the tune will change.
Driving down the highway in traffic is akin to flying in formation. Imagine when all cars are networked, aware of each other and their intention, people will stop dying on the roads. I (probably) won't live to see it, but given the calculation speed of a computer, I think the bar to out-perform a human is fairly low.
Right now my car has 8 cameras that don't even blink, and with the Radar and sonic sensors, it's already more aware of the road than I am.
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Iain
Member
I'm sorry your NOA sucks so bad. Have you taken it in for service or tried another car that has it? I have it think it does an extremely good job on freeways, my wife who was the biggest skeptic and extremely nervous about it is now a huge fan. Then again I don't have it on mad max.
yeah... doesnt matter. You can blame Tesla's poor choice of names with "Autopilot" and "Full self driving." It was Tesla's fault to call TACC+autosteer "Autopilot" and now idiots treat it as a way where they can sleep, fiddle on their phone, or go in the back seat and then crash into a parked car/firetruck/police car, etc. You don't see anyone looking into other car companies with similar TACC+Autosteer features. Insurance companies know this and don't care if the accident rates of regular driving are technically higher. Adding another factor of possible endangerment just gives insurance companies another excuse to raise premiums especially when Tesla isn't going through any type of regulatory approval process that we know of for the current releases.
Calling the current and near future iterations of this system "Full self driving" is going to do the same thing. The current "FSD" iteration released to the select few would still be considered SAE Level 2. I highly doubt they get it to SAE Level 3 upon public release yet people will treat it like SAE Level 5...
IMO, rates will go up before they go down with FSD and you can thank the small subset of idiots using it not as intended.
Yup that's the other problem. I want a cyber truck and would probably consider fsd on that but fsd was 7000 when it went up for reservation and now is 8k so Tesla doing a heck of a job of pissing off its own customers
How is that pissing off their customers? If you reserved when it was $7k you pay $7k. If you reserve while it is $8k you pay $8k. If you reserve after next Wednesday you pay $10k...
Maybe that fine with you, I'm not cool with it increasing on existing Tesla customers. Not all of us are in a position to reserve at this time.
jonquiljo
Active Member
This reminds me of a poker game. Someone raises and most people pay up and stay in just to play the game longer. Then someone raises again and a fair percentage of the players still stay in because they still want to play. "Just my opinion" - Tesla should raise the price on FSD (if they want to) once it is no longer "Beta" software.
Personally, FSD is not something I would want - not even if it were free. I like driving cars - which is why I bought a Tesla. I like the way the car drives and I'll be damned if the car is going to take that away from me! I see a Model 3 as a unique type of sports sedan. Now another 200 miles of range... that I would pay a bundle for. But having the car drive me instead of me drive the car? Just not for me.
As for whether FSD is worth "investing" in as software that is not transferable - nope. Cars get totaled all the time. Cars get sold all the time. Insurance companies and resellers have to factor in the price of the FSD - now at $10K. Lots of them don't. Even if you bought FSD for $2K, it's current value needs to be taken seriously as $10K. If someone rear seriously ends my Tesla - I'm not going lose out on something I paid $10K for. And it is easy to total a Tesla with current repair costs.
Personally, FSD is not something I would want - not even if it were free. I like driving cars - which is why I bought a Tesla. I like the way the car drives and I'll be damned if the car is going to take that away from me! I see a Model 3 as a unique type of sports sedan. Now another 200 miles of range... that I would pay a bundle for. But having the car drive me instead of me drive the car? Just not for me.
As for whether FSD is worth "investing" in as software that is not transferable - nope. Cars get totaled all the time. Cars get sold all the time. Insurance companies and resellers have to factor in the price of the FSD - now at $10K. Lots of them don't. Even if you bought FSD for $2K, it's current value needs to be taken seriously as $10K. If someone rear seriously ends my Tesla - I'm not going lose out on something I paid $10K for. And it is easy to total a Tesla with current repair costs.
mact3333
Member
a complicated issue for sure...but the way I see it, buying FSD is like investing for the future with tesla...if you dont have faith in Elon and the potential of FSD then by all means, you shouldn't pay a dime for this...but I for one believe in Elon and Tesla...Elon stretches the truth sometimes but what he says always seems to happen with time...FSD is a investment in the future on how we will use our vehicles in the future...Tesla has a big head start in FSD and I just dont see Mobile Eye or Waymo catching them...I couldn't justify paying 8K for FSD for a 2018 model 3 AWD Long Range knowing I wouldn't keep this car for more than another year, hence I bit the bullet and just ordered a M3P with FSD...yes I know FSD won't be reliable at first and that it isn't true full self drive yet and it will be a PROCESS(AI learning and legal govt regulations)...I accept that ...but I also believe in Elon and Tesla and I buy FSD for the same reasons I am a TSLA and SpaceX share holder...faith in the future.
Really? You're not in a position to put down a $100, fully refundable, deposit now, but you expect to be able to buy a Cybertruck in a year or two?
And why should Tesla give existing customers discounts on their future work? The reason FSD has been cheap is because it essentially gave you nothing and you were taking a risk that you might eventually get something while you still had the vehicle. Once they are actually delivering features you no longer get that discount.
Cause a vehicle has a finite life. Makes absolutely no sense to charge full price for FSD on a five year old vehicle vs. a brand new vehicle.
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