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Upgrade to Tesla vision and lose radar????

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#21
Tam said:
4D radar does not see pictures. It has no picture, so it is definitely color-blind. It's not only color blind, it's blind because it does not see lights. Because it is blind so it has no problem with sun glares, and it works perfectly with sun glares. It sends out radio waves and receives the bounced-back waves so it can do measurements. It sees cloud points just like LIDAR does. 4D radar is the next generation and is advanced, but it is still a radar, not LIDAR, not cameras.

However, you can feed its data to a neuro network, and it can translate the info into understandable and workable LIDAR and Camera formats including colors.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

Checking a bit more it appears Tesla has been playing with 4D radar. It looks like since the technology is new and requires a new hardware (sensors units, etc.) that they will need to make changes in the cars and the NN models, etc. before they can support it. Also, since the price for the hardware is relatively high. But it sounds like good technology to integrate into the vehicles.
 
#25
T.R.T.e.s.l.a. said:
So, i'm still on 2022.20.8 on both my X's.
Wondering if i should just update and lose radar and ultrasonic sensors... or stay footed....

Who still have has radar and USS?
Click to expand...
I kept radar until I slipped up and let the update happen a week or 2 ago.
Since then, the driving experience is slightly worse.
I had not had any phantom braking in a long time, maybe 1+ years, and now I am getting a milder phantom brake- it hasn’t slammed the brakes but it does sometimes apply them when it no driver would.
Also, and maybe not related, the frequency of approaching a stop sign without slowing until the last moment has increased.
 
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#32
T.R.T.e.s.l.a. said:
I'm still on 2022.20.8.
Anyone else here is in the same boat or have you all lost radar by now?

How is radarless autopilot now?
Any better than when radar was switchet off?
Click to expand...
It works fine. It was disabled in mid 2021 on my 2018. Not installed on my 2022. I do not miss it at all.
Better in the respect that Vision can see things that radar never could, like pedestrians, bicycles, animals, and other objects that were transparent to radar. Rumor has it that a new high resolution radar is coming, but that is completely different tech from conventional radar.
 
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#33
T.R.T.e.s.l.a. said:
I'm still on 2022.20.8.
Anyone else here is in the same boat or have you all lost radar by now?

How is radarless autopilot now?
Any better than when radar was switchet off?
Click to expand...

I updated because I had an upcoming service appointment, but then cancelled the appointment. Wish I hadn't installed the update.

I can't comment on autopilot because I don't use it, but since the update the nav intermittently shows the car as offset from it's actual position. Also, the alarm has gone off 3 times for no reason... once at 3am... each time it was parked in a different location. Seems like turning on climate controls may have caused it each time.

Those issues are likely unrelated to the loss of radar, but as it's been for my 24 months of ownership - updates are like one step forward, two steps back. Or maybe one step forward, one step back, roll the dice... and cross fingers they don't hide something important behind a menu.
 
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#35
Recently (this winter) I started noticing, when driving between Breckenridge and Colorado Springs, using TACC, the car would phantom brake way more often than it used to. Not slamming on the brakes, but enough to freak out the passengers and myself. We do the drive pretty frequently and it happens multiple times every time on the drive home. Then in the last week or so on my morning commute, I've been driving straight into the sun, using TACC. When this happens now I get the "Autopilot speed reduced due to poor visibility." Slows the car down to the point where TACC is less than useless. I never used to get this. Finally decided to check the forum (I haven't been keeping up and have just been applying updates as I get them). Now I'm pretty certain that this variety of phantom braking and the "cruise control is useless when driving into the sun" are due to my radar having been disabled and using Tesla Vision.

I honestly find it severely annoying that Tesla can (and does) disable a piece of safety equipment on my vehicle, making the car perform noticeably worse. I am not a fan of the Tesla software model. They say the car is constantly "improving" with updates. But as @father_of_6 says, every software update is a roll of the dice, and I get tense every time I see that I have a new software update available. This is not the first time I've been angry upon finding my car to be not quite as good as it used to be. Alas, there's nothing I can do about it and it will happen again. And again.

I love my car, but I don't think I'll ever buy a Tesla again.
 
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#36
Slightly off topic but related (came to this thread because my issues with MX radar): I think that with the current hardware, it is absolutely, 100% certain that Tesla's promise of FULL self driving is not possible at all, whatsoever, period. It will not happen. There are multiple reasons, but just the most obvious: cameras only are not, and will not ever be adequate for level 5 autopilot. Level 5 would mean that you don't actually have a driver in the car (e.g. it can be a 95 year old who can hardly see, never mind drive) so if there is any situation in which the car simply can't continue driving for any reason, it is not level 5. If you promise someone a self driving robocar experience, you can't just leave them in the middle of the road because "poor weather is detected". Cameras can get dirty, and that's all autopilot needs to be completely incapacitated. It's like a human with no eyelids, no tears, and no hands. If something goes into your eyes... you are screwed, no way to get it out. Could you drive that way? No, you can't, and cars can't either. The "eyes" of the car are exposed to dirt and weather with absolutely no way for the car to clean them. No wonder Tesla is going back to radar - that's their only chance of ever being able to deliver on their "full self driving" promise, I guess they realized that too by now. Unfortunately that won't happen for any of their currently existing cars, because no Tesla currently in existence has the hardware required to make it happen.

Oh, and BTW, the issue that brought me here: with even a light snowfall, snow accumulates on the front of my MX, blocks the radar and not only AP, but even TACC quits. When I would need it most - poor visibility, slippery roads, other drivers more prone to making mistakes, idiots driving in the snow with summer tires, etc... I don't know if there is any way to fix this, but it's ridiculous for a car that promises full self driving that all driving safety and convenience features shut down, turning into a full manual car with not even cruise control when as much as a light snowfall hits...
 
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#37
SilentFlight said:
with the current hardware, it is absolutely, 100% certain that Tesla's promise of FULL self driving is not possible at all,
Click to expand...
I completely agree. I remember in 2018 when I first had my MX, I was driving through a blinding rain storm and could barely see 20ft in front of the car. Of course I slowed down, but the radar was able to detect cars way in front of me, and adaptive cruise was still functional. I have been saying the same thing from the beginning, and normally suggest unless you have the money to throw away, don't buy FSD. Advanced Autopilot is work it, and I use that a lot, but I leave my FSD beta disabled most of the time. Now I get "camera blinded or blocked" messages all of the time.
 
#38
SilentFlight said:
I think that with the current hardware, it is absolutely, 100% certain that Tesla's promise of FULL self driving is not possible at all, whatsoever, period.
Click to expand...

I think most people come to this conclusion given enough research and/or experience using it. I consider myself lucky that I already had no faith in FSD before buying my car, and feel bad for those that purchased it without knowing.

Autonomous driving requires LiDAR.
 
#39
SilentFlight said:
Slightly off topic but related (came to this thread because my issues with MX radar): I think that with the current hardware, it is absolutely, 100% certain that Tesla's promise of FULL self driving is not possible at all, whatsoever, period. It will not happen. There are multiple reasons, but just the most obvious: cameras only are not, and will not ever be adequate for level 5 autopilot. Level 5 would mean that you don't actually have a driver in the car (e.g. it can be a 95 year old who can hardly see, never mind drive) so if there is any situation in which the car simply can't continue driving for any reason, it is not level 5. If you promise someone a self driving robocar experience, you can't just leave them in the middle of the road because "poor weather is detected". Cameras can get dirty, and that's all autopilot needs to be completely incapacitated. It's like a human with no eyelids, no tears, and no hands. If something goes into your eyes... you are screwed, no way to get it out. Could you drive that way? No, you can't, and cars can't either. The "eyes" of the car are exposed to dirt and weather with absolutely no way for the car to clean them. No wonder Tesla is going back to radar - that's their only chance of ever being able to deliver on their "full self driving" promise, I guess they realized that too by now. Unfortunately that won't happen for any of their currently existing cars, because no Tesla currently in existence has the hardware required to make it happen.

Oh, and BTW, the issue that brought me here: with even a light snowfall, snow accumulates on the front of my MX, blocks the radar and not only AP, but even TACC quits. When I would need it most - poor visibility, slippery roads, other drivers more prone to making mistakes, idiots driving in the snow with summer tires, etc... I don't know if there is any way to fix this, but it's ridiculous for a car that promises full self driving that all driving safety and convenience features shut down, turning into a full manual car with not even cruise control when as much as a light snowfall hits...
Click to expand...
Well said, I agree. I have felt foolish for spending so much ($10k in 2020) on fsd and when asked I never recommend it. I turned it back on recently and it is much improved, I now use it a lot, with frequent interventions, and I would say as a Driver Assistance feature it’s very good, worth a couple thousand $.
It’s certainly not Full Self Driving.
 
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