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Upgraded Backup Gateway
- Thread starter Shygar
- Start date
I read the linked thread at Whirlpool from the linked point forward. The main poster seems to ignore the possibility that Tesla will release a Powerwall with built-in 3-phase inverter. All of the problems he described will vanish if they do that. Also, if they have a true 3-phase gateway and the gateway can maintain the sync across 3 single phase Powerwalls, then they can still do the frequency shifting overall to curtail the solar when the batteries are full. The only problem that would remain is unequal loads on the 3 phases draining one of the Powerwalls before the others.
Ulmo
Active Member
Apparently the prior version did not have enough of the foresight I loudly talked about here for years: the ability to have fast reaction to grid conditions. The new version has that ability designed into it. What those specs are I do not know; I bet that both the old and the new version could be used for reacting to grid conditions within their respective specs for use cases that work in their respective specs, and that the new version is still not the top end fast reactor that they could do. However, usually these things get designed to be useful, so hopefully they did that, and have a target capability in mind that they will actually be used for. I applaud them improving it and learning more, at the very least, and hopefully bring more grid services online sooner.
The reporter had this paragraph that I assume is inaccurate, but if accurate, implies and says many downgrades compared to the prior model single phase system I have:
The new version also includes a range of new features, including fast data, improved connectivity, and the ability to work with three phase homes that will enable up to 10 Powerwalls to be connected on-grid and up to 4 Powerwalls for single phase back-up during an outage.
For instance, my older gateway allows 9 PowerWall 2's, fully usable in backup or self-generation mode, in a single phase grid location (split 240V with neutral in the middle). The above paragraph incorrectly states only 4 powerwalls will work for single phase backup; I'm not sure what they mean by that (if it was just wrong, or an omission of conditions).
Ulmo
Active Member
Ugh. Reading that, it shows that Tesla continues to be unenlightened. They could just have each PowerWall inverter pick a phase bus and output match needed electrons in the right format for that bus (phase) as needed and dispatched by the Backup Gateway, i.e., load distribution. This would require at least 3 PW2's in which case they would each just select one bus, and any more than 3 would allow the additional PW2's to roam different phases according to need. (If all the PW2's were thusly connected to all 3 phases and able to roam, then this would allow a PW2 failure to not get in the way of 3 phase operation, provided sufficient PW2's remained (and the gateway can detect and route around failures).) Obviously, this would only allow step-change amounts of power available in 5KW (7KW non-continuous) increments, but in my opinion, that's a good enough of a compromise to fully deliver all possible uses of existing designs and equipment than Tesla's current (typically corporate unenlightened) disabled design. This opens up the possibility for competing backup gateway manufacturers as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure if the phase roaming capability was built into the PW2's or not, so that may also need to be external, but by the time you get that far into design, you might as well source your own batteries and make your own entire system at that point.
Also, little things like communicating with other companies' inverters such as solar inverters using frequency changing should be improved upon and replaced; often systems fail to do things they have the hardware to do simply because the communications channels weren't properly established and programmed; Tesla should make a proprietary arrangement with each inverter manufacturer that supports this, until a sufficient industry standardized communication method takes hold. No reason to wait. Once again, Tesla acts like a bunch of wimpy girls that can't go negotiate with their peers at the negotiating table.
And finally, a third option that would add to the above capabilities would be to have a 3 phase inverter to break up the final 5kW increment into smaller bits and really deliver the maximum tailored power to the phases as needed; using my "PW2's on 3 phase bus roaming capability" description, there are all sorts of ways this could be done, but my favorite cheap solution is to pick one battery and just add two more roaming inverters to it in addition to the existing one.
Of course, this would also be coordinated by the gateway, that is, until peer to peer protocols are robust enough no super smart gateway is required (a dumb gateway able to auto-disconnect in fault situations would still be required, but smart enough to reconnect once the fault is cleared enough).
Ok, let's look to the future: hey Tesla, make a version 3 or 4 or whatever that does a minimum of what I said!
Brainstorming some problems with my above design: the bus selector switch would be a cost and reliability point (one for each PW2 that can connect to each phase without crossing the phases in any way; two bipole switches ought to work; anyway, this seems like a solved thing at some level). That's really the only problem I see with it. Well, and we may need a PowerWall 3 in order to add communications and fast inverter integration, unless PW2 can already do that.
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The article is written completely from the Australian perspective. So, you have to assume everything they said was based on their grid, which is 240V L-N and 415V L-L 3-phase. Most likely they're talking about 3 phase service with only one phase backed up and operable when the grid is down. The poster at Whirlpool linked above pointed out the obvious problem with backing up only one phase when your solar is 3 phase and must deliver equal power on all three phases. You can't use solar to extend your battery runtime when you're in that situation.
Ulmo
Active Member
Agreed. And, thus, why I'm complaining about the PW2's not being distributed in such a way they cover all 3 phases. Maybe I misread. Similar although not identical issues come up in other 3 phase countries, even including some smaller 3 phase USA installations (although that's rare talk, and they may forego underwriting paperwork costs for such small market segments).
My feeling is that Tesla eventually needs to release a Powerwall with built-in 3-phase inverter. Assuming the same 5kW continuous 7.5kW peak, it would have 10A 3-phase connection. 10 Powerwalls would be 100A on 3 phases and the 4 Powerwalls on single phase would be 120A. The only open question is whether a single SKU could cover the whole range of 120V to 240V L-N voltages on 3-phase.
Anybody with a recent (post Oct-2018) PowerWall 2 installation in the USA seeing this new Backup Energy Gateway 2 hardware? I'm trying to understand why they raised prices recently without at least making commensurate hardware updates.
This is for those NOT in Australia.
specsheet: https://www.awsolar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Backup_Gateway_2_Datasheet_EN.pdf
This is for those NOT in Australia.
specsheet: https://www.awsolar.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Backup_Gateway_2_Datasheet_EN.pdf
zanary
Active Member
I had Tesla Energy come out back in late November, and I asked them about this. All the guy knew is that instead of the old "grey" box, they are now branding the gateway in their own shell that may have room for more than one Neurio. He had no knowledge if any of the guts were improved.
There's no mention anywhere else on their site for this that I could find.
wbhokie
Member
I just had an installation with 2x Powewall 2s over the last week. Gateway was still in a standard grey metal box.
tjka4231
Member
Jays200
Member
I'm excited.
Tesla called yesterday about our PW2 reserved Nov '17. Signed paperwork today, installer site visit tomorrow. Here's a quote from correspondence from Tesla today.
"Hi Jayson,
You’re on the ball! Thank you for signing that so quickly.
At this point, you’re the first Gateway 2 customer that I have passed through to the installation team, in both WA and Australia, although I can’t guarantee that you’ll be the first installed – as much as I would love for this to happen! We will be a bit reliant on how quickly Western Power approve the application we submit, following your site assessment, and they can, unfortunately, take a few weeks to approve it."
I'll be posting progress on Twitter as well @Jays200
Tesla called yesterday about our PW2 reserved Nov '17. Signed paperwork today, installer site visit tomorrow. Here's a quote from correspondence from Tesla today.
"Hi Jayson,
You’re on the ball! Thank you for signing that so quickly.
At this point, you’re the first Gateway 2 customer that I have passed through to the installation team, in both WA and Australia, although I can’t guarantee that you’ll be the first installed – as much as I would love for this to happen! We will be a bit reliant on how quickly Western Power approve the application we submit, following your site assessment, and they can, unfortunately, take a few weeks to approve it."
I'll be posting progress on Twitter as well @Jays200
Jays200
Member
Site visit completed by contractor this morning. Arrived early and stayed for about 90 mins. 30mins was probably actual PW2 related and the rest was chatting about all things EV, solar etc.
Install needs Cat6 connection too and installer happy for me to run that.
I just had a call from Tesla Energy in Sydney and they were amazed we had progressed to utility application stage in two days. Gateway 2 hardware is literally still in transit from the USA.
Install needs Cat6 connection too and installer happy for me to run that.
I just had a call from Tesla Energy in Sydney and they were amazed we had progressed to utility application stage in two days. Gateway 2 hardware is literally still in transit from the USA.
ssq
Member
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