Upgrading from NEMA 14-50 50amps to HPWC 60amps

[eprosenx]

If so then definitely just go to the 90-100amp circuit it will be $45 more in materials and then you are future proof. People stress over the cost of the materials but as I detailed it isn't that bad.

He can go to a max of 4 AWG in his existing 3/4 EMT so a max of an 80 amp breaker. Otherwise the entire conduit needs replaced.

Sorry about the confusion over the 20amps breaker, it was on an earlier post on page 1 (re-attached here, before and after new breaker at the top), since my panel was almost full to fit in a 50 amps breaker there was one slot left, so they did install a quad breaker with 50 in the middle and 20 on the outside.

So I'm thinking when I get the panel upgrade to 225amps I ask them to put the 20amps circuit on it's own breaker again, and then either install a dedicated 50 or 60 amps breaker.

Based on your great info guys, I'm thinking of these 3 plans right now (in the order I would prefer):

A. During panel upgrade, install 60 amps breaker and upgrade cabling to 6 AWG. It won't be as per code but again the UMC is only pulling 32 amps, so temporary solution. When the signature HPWC does arrive, remove NEMA 14-50 outlet and hardwire the HPWC. (48amps charging)

B. Don't change the wiring or breaker, remove the outlet and hardwire the HPWC. (40amps charging)

C. Keep the outlet and install the HPWC via a pigtail. (40amps charging)

D. Install the HPWC on the other side of the garage (right behind panel) on it's own 60amps circuit and get 2 charging stations, but it would be on the "wrong" side for where I park the car.

Btw to put to rest the "daily driving" / "no need to charge faster" I work in sales and can drive any time 200-300 mi to LA and down to SD and drive again at night. But yeah superchargers are there I get it, but it's more like if I can charge to 48 amps for a few more bucks why not? It's like panel upgrade, future proofing and all.

I see three options for you if you want to keep the current charge location (Option D is otherwise always an option):

1. Keep the existing wire in your conduit. Extend it to the Wall Connector. Keep it on a 50a breaker when you get the new panel. So 40a max charge (up from 32 today).
2. Upgrade your wire to #6 awg on a 60a breaker and just run the new wire direct into the Wall Connector. This gives you a 48a max charge rate which maxes out the M3.
3. Upgrade your wire to #4 awg on a 80a breaker and just run the new wire direct into the Wall Connector. This gives you a 64a max charge rate, though the M3 will never use more than 48a. This gives you a little future proofing if you think you might get a different Tesla or other EV later which could take the full 64a (Model S and X units can take up to 72a when properly configured).

Note that switching to a 60a breaker before you move from the receptacle to the Wall Connector is certainly not to code, though I have seen much worse things done. FWIW, swapping the breaker after the fact in a brand new panel would not be a very big deal.

I will call out that I don't believe putting a pigtail on the Wall Connector is a code compliant installation, though it appears to be somewhat popular. I believe it violates two things: 1. You are not following the instructions that come with the Wall Connector (this is not how they tell you to install it), 2. NEC says pigtails (where allowed) must be 12" or less. Now from a practical standpoint, it is probably fine. In your situation, I do see the benefit of the pigtail since it would require no modification, and it would give you a backup in case the Wall Connector fried you could go back to your UMC.

You mentioned in a previous post buying Red, Black, and Green #6 awg. The green (ground) can be #10 if you do a 60a circuit, but anything above that (up to 100a) needs to be #8awg ground.

Given what you have explained about your mounting setup, there is a high likelihood that I would just run conduit out the bottom of your existing electrical junction box, down, over, and up into the bottom of the HPWC. I personally would do it with EMT because I have a bender and I think it looks clean, but most would do it with Flex conduit. You can use LFMC if you prefer the looks (just get the right fittings).

Let us know what you end up with!

P.S. I am in the camp of "install the biggest thing you can". The capital costs are so low when amortized over the lifespan of a house... The wire you install may be in use 30 years from now several vehicles later (hard to say for sure). I love that my M3 charges in a little over an hour every day when I get home from work. It is always ready and waiting for me if I want to go somewhere a long way away in an emergency!

 

[SSedan]

I would do the 4gauge in existing conduit. Gives you enough capacity to install a second load sharing unit later and charge 2 cars at the rate you charge one now.

Next home keep this in mind though.

 

[LonestarV]

Reading through these threads has helped me decide I'll stick with the 14-50 and UMC for my garage installation.

Parents have an RV that can utilize it if need be.

Future home owner could use it for a dryer, welder, or of course to charge their EV.

 

[jgd108]

Thanks @eprosenx and @SSedan and others

I will see how much it would cost to rewire to 4 AWG and install the HPWC with an electrician.

Load balancing wise, if I get a second Tesla I could do a second NEMA 14-50 on 50amps breaker, and since charging at night in super off peak I guess amperage wise it would be OK with the new 225amps panel coming shortly right?

Side question: many people said here that rewiring is expensive. I mean isn't something I could even do, you already have wires you can attach to in order to insert the new wires? The conduit is already there.

Second side question: should I decide to down the pigtail route using my existing wiring and breaker (50amps), it seems that it's fairly simple to buy a cord and a few tools and could potentially install the HPWC myself ? And I like to mobility of it and taking the HPWC when I sell the house with me.

Tesla Wall Connector Installation
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-4-Foot-50-Amp-4-Wire/dp/B002RL9JAW/

Or I'm missing something?

 

[eprosenx]

Thanks @eprosenx and @SSedan and others

I will see how much it would cost to rewire to 4 AWG and install the HPWC with an electrician.

Load balancing wise, if I get a second Tesla I could do a second NEMA 14-50 on 50amps breaker, and since charging at night in super off peak I guess amperage wise it would be OK with the new 225amps panel coming shortly right?

Side question: many people said here that rewiring is expensive. I mean isn't something I could even do, you already have wires you can attach to in order to insert the new wires? The conduit is already there.

Second side question: should I decide to down the pigtail route using my existing wiring and breaker (50amps), it seems that it's fairly simple to buy a cord and a few tools and could potentially install the HPWC myself ? And I like to mobility of it and taking the HPWC when I sell the house with me.

Tesla Wall Connector Installation
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-4-Foot-50-Amp-4-Wire/dp/B002RL9JAW/

Or I'm missing something?

FWIW, upgrading to a 64a max charge rate is kind of a weird one since one reason folks sometimes do more than a 60a breaker (48a max charge rate) is so they can later "share" the circuit with another HPWC. In your case, if you added a second HPWC on the other side of the garage you probably would want it on a 100a circuit if it was to be sharing.

The reason to do things in "sharing" mode is to avoid overloading your service. Putting two HPWC's on one 100a circuit is better than say doing one on a 60a circuit and one on a 90a circuit separately (to max out a Model 3 and a Model S respectively). Letting them share one 100a circuit allows you to only have to plan for 100a off your main service vs 150a. Either car could charge at full speed then as long as the other car did not need to charge at the same time. If both need to charge, they each get half the 100a.

To you question of if you could do a second 50a breaker: Probably since you are upgrading the service, but what needs to be done is a load calculation per the NEC formulas to see what you have available. Residential load calculations are very very murky to me. There are allowances for calculating only the greater of two "non coincident loads" (like heating and AC), but I am not sure that your use case of manually forcing your car to charge at night counts. I am also confused by your new 225a panel: 225a panels are common, but will your main electrical service from the utility also be 225a? Normally our options around here are like 200a or 320/400 amp. You don't get a 225a option I don't think.

As far as difficulty of swapping wires: This is pretty much as trivial of a electrical project involving your main panel as they come. Pulling new wire in existing conduit is generally easy. Especially if you go with 4awg you may want to buy some conduit lube gel to make pulling easier.

Also, installing a pigtail on your HPWC is also a pretty darned easy project as they come. Just make sure you have good/proper strain relief and you tighten all connectors as per the torque instructions.

 

[xcat]

My friend was quoted 50 amp breaker for a 14-50 outlet install w 6awg wire. Advised her to ask the electrician to just put in the 60 which he did.

Now if she ever wants a HPWC an electrician will not be needed.

 

[brkaus]

My friend was quoted 50 amp breaker for a 14-50 outlet install w 6awg wire. Advised her to ask the electrician to just put in the 60 which he did.

Now if she ever wants a HPWC an electrician will not be needed.

A 60a breaker on a 50a outlet is dangerous. The outlet is only designed to handle 50a. If it goes above 50a the outlet may fail (fire) and the breaker would let it happen.

If the wire is 6ga and in conduit, that part is fine for future upgrade.

But a 60a breaker should not be on a 50a outlet.

 

[eprosenx]

A 60a breaker on a 50a outlet is dangerous. The outlet is only designed to handle 50a. If it goes above 50a the outlet may fail (fire) and the breaker would let it happen.

If the wire is 6ga and in conduit, that part is fine for future upgrade.

But a 60a breaker should not be on a 50a outlet.

^— This. Any competent electrician should never have done this. Also, if the wire is Romex it isn’t allowed for 60a anyway.

 

[EVDRVN]

Best to do a 1000A sub panel in case you get a semi or six Teslas Who knows they may have home super chargers soon? I had the utility upgrade my transformer on the pole so I can be future prooooofed! My daily commute is 10 miles but you never know when you need that extra mile of charge. I was able to jam 4G wire in a 1/2" conduit so I did not need to run a new one, no room for a ground but who needs that when you can charge faster! I simply ran some speaker wire from the ground up to my garage door opener and grounded it there and it worked great. So much better than my 14G wire to my 14-50 outlet and it runs much cooler. My electrician is great, I found him in the Home Depot parking lot if any one needs his number. I charge so much faster now

My next project is to add two stacked modules in a M3 so I can charge at 144A! Just need to test my inlet for heat.

 

[jgd108]

Quick follow up question.. should I go the pigtail route I see all the videos and instructions to basically buy a range cord and hook it up to the HPWC.. but if the NEMA 14-50 outlet doesn't have a ground, how will the range cord ground function? Will the range cord ground use the NEMA 14-50 neutral? Or these guys have a ground wire already in their NEMA 14-50(r?) when it is usually not required?
Thx!

 

[brkaus]

Quick follow up question.. should I go the pigtail route I see all the videos and instructions to basically buy a range cord and hook it up to the HPWC.. but if the NEMA 14-50 outlet doesn't have a ground, how will the range cord ground function? Will the range cord ground use the NEMA 14-50 neutral? Or these guys have a ground wire already in their NEMA 14-50(r?) when it is usually not required?
Thx!

The NEMA 14-50 outlet should have a ground and neutral (and two hots). If it does not, it could fry an RV that gets plugged into it.

The HPWC/WC has a ground, two hots, and NO neutral. The range cord will have a neutral. That should not be capped off and not connected to anything in the HPWC.

 

[eprosenx]

Quick follow up question.. should I go the pigtail route I see all the videos and instructions to basically buy a range cord and hook it up to the HPWC.. but if the NEMA 14-50 outlet doesn't have a ground, how will the range cord ground function? Will the range cord ground use the NEMA 14-50 neutral? Or these guys have a ground wire already in their NEMA 14-50(r?) when it is usually not required?
Thx!

As @brkaus mentioned, the 14-50 has two hots, a ground, and a neutral. You just don't need the neutral. I might just cut it off right where you stripped the outer insulation to and then wrap the whole thing in electrical tape a bunch of times to insulate the exposed bit (not that it is much of a danger since the HPWC enclosure is plastic).

Don't connect the neutral to the ground location on the HPWC. Connect the ground wire to the ground location.

 

[jgd108]

The NEMA 14-50 outlet should have a ground and neutral (and two hots). If it does not, it could fry an RV that gets plugged into it.

The HPWC/WC has a ground, two hots, and NO neutral. The range cord will have a neutral. That should not be capped off and not connected to anything in the HPWC.

As @brkaus mentioned, the 14-50 has two hots, a ground, and a neutral. You just don't need the neutral. I might just cut it off right where you stripped the outer insulation to and then wrap the whole thing in electrical tape a bunch of times to insulate the exposed bit (not that it is much of a danger since the HPWC enclosure is plastic).

Don't connect the neutral to the ground location on the HPWC. Connect the ground wire to the ground location.

False alert, my outlet does have an actual ground - green wire 10 AWG! I've never been so happy looking at my panel before

At this moment, I'm leaning towards the pigtail and putting the HPWC on the stud when the cable organizer is right now and connect it to a range power cord back to the NEMA 14-50 and charge up to 40 amps.

Main advantage is I feel I can do it myself (with neighbor's help) which would be awesome.

Also like the portability and it won't look too ugly.

Lastly if we get another EV which isn't Tesla and occasionally need a quick charge I can always use that outlet (I understand it's not ideal to plug and unplug often).

Last question for now.. when I get my panel upgraded should I ask the electrician to put the 50 amps breaker on its own circuit and not a quad breaker like now? Pics attached.. quad breaker is at the top of panel.

 

[davewill]

False alert, my outlet does have an actual ground - green wire 10 AWG! I've never been so happy looking at my panel before

At this moment, I'm leaning towards the pigtail and putting the HPWC on the stud when the cable organizer is right now and connect it to a range power cord back to the NEMA 14-50 and charge up to 40 amps.

Main advantage is I feel I can do it myself (with neighbor's help) which would be awesome.

Also like the portability and it won't look too ugly.

Lastly if we get another EV which isn't Tesla and occasionally need a quick charge I can always use that outlet (I understand it's not ideal to plug and unplug often).

Last question for now.. when I get my panel upgraded should I ask the electrician to put the 50 amps breaker on its own circuit and not a quad breaker like now? Pics attached.. quad breaker is at the top of panel.

I think the pigtail is fine, and I like being able to unplug my EVSE rather than run to the breaker panel to kill power. However, be sure to cut it short so that it isn't in danger of being snagged or tripped over.

I see no reason to change the breaker, the quad should be just fine.

Do know that you wanted to hard wire it, the job is not really much more difficult than installing the pigtail.

 

[jgd108]

I think the pigtail is fine, and I like being able to unplug my EVSE rather than run to the breaker panel to kill power. However, be sure to cut it short so that it isn't in danger of being snagged or tripped over.

I see no reason to change the breaker, the quad should be just fine.

Do know that you wanted to hard wire it, the job is not really much more difficult than installing the pigtail.

Thanks Davewill

I checked the distance between the NEMA 14-50 and where the HPWC will be installed (over the cable organizer) and with a slight drop the length is 3 feet, if I keep the cord at 4 feet it would look exactly like how the UMC is:

When you guys say cutting the cord you mean the wires and the jacket right?

Yes I could always do hardwired later, just that I would need an electrician (I don't mind trying to pull in the new 4 or 6 AWG wires, but playing with the panel is too risky for me). And the cost might not justify those 8 extra amps I might save that money and install another NEMA 14-50 on the other side then..

BTW debating which cord to buy, looks like a popular one amongst Tesla owners is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/TES-Ft-Wire-Range-Cord/dp/B00TCZPV2G/

I like this one for the plug look:
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-4-Foot-50-Amp-4-Wire/dp/B002RL9JAW/

 

[davewill]

Thanks Davewill

I checked the distance between the NEMA 14-50 and where the HPWC will be installed (over the cable organizer) and with a slight drop the length is 3 feet, if I keep the cord at 4 feet it would look exactly like how the UMC is:

View attachment 329501

When you guys say cutting the cord you mean the wires and the jacket right?

Yes I could always do hardwired later, just that I would need an electrician (I don't mind trying to pull in the new 4 or 6 AWG wires, but playing with the panel is too risky for me). And the cost might not justify those 8 extra amps I might save that money and install another NEMA 14-50 on the other side then..

BTW debating which cord to buy, looks like a popular one amongst Tesla owners is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/TES-Ft-Wire-Range-Cord/dp/B00TCZPV2G/

I like this one for the plug look:
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-4-Foot-50-Amp-4-Wire/dp/B002RL9JAW/

If it were me, I would mount the wall connector right next to the outlet and try to get the pigtail down under 2 feet. Not saying your plan is terrible, just saying what I would do. Both of those cords look fine to me.

 

[xcat]

A 60a breaker on a 50a outlet is dangerous. The outlet is only designed to handle 50a. If it goes above 50a the outlet may fail (fire) and the breaker would let it happen.

If the wire is 6ga and in conduit, that part is fine for future upgrade.

But a 60a breaker should not be on a 50a outlet.

I don’t see how it could be dangerous unless you’re splicing two outlets onto 1 circuit. Any device with a 14-50 plug will draw less than what the outlet is rated. What are some other dangers?

 

[brkaus]

I don’t see how it could be dangerous unless you’re splicing two outlets onto 1 circuit. Any device with a 14-50 plug will draw less than what the outlet is rated. What are some other dangers?

If, for whatever reason, they do not stop at 50a. The cord and the outlet may melt before the breaker would trip.

 

[davewill]

I don’t see how it could be dangerous unless you’re splicing two outlets onto 1 circuit. Any device with a 14-50 plug will draw less than what the outlet is rated. What are some other dangers?

Two words: Short circuit.

 

[eprosenx]

False alert, my outlet does have an actual ground - green wire 10 AWG! I've never been so happy looking at my panel before

At this moment, I'm leaning towards the pigtail and putting the HPWC on the stud when the cable organizer is right now and connect it to a range power cord back to the NEMA 14-50 and charge up to 40 amps.

Main advantage is I feel I can do it myself (with neighbor's help) which would be awesome.

Also like the portability and it won't look too ugly.

Lastly if we get another EV which isn't Tesla and occasionally need a quick charge I can always use that outlet (I understand it's not ideal to plug and unplug often).

Last question for now.. when I get my panel upgraded should I ask the electrician to put the 50 amps breaker on its own circuit and not a quad breaker like now? Pics attached.. quad breaker is at the top of panel.

Yeah, sounds like a pigtail would be a very straightforward and cost effective solution (while maybe not technically code compliant). Just make sure to use proper strain relief.

Your 50a breaker is already on its own circuit, it just happens to be of the higher density "tandem" style breakers. Really no functional difference. If you are getting your panel replaced then most likely you should be getting all brand new breakers anyway. The non-tandem breakers are generally much cheaper and so assuming your new panel has plenty of physical slots I would go with all non-tandem breakers.