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Upset at SMH article - Tesla worse than a Prius!

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by alpal, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. alpal

    alpal Member

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    #1 alpal, Apr 4, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016
  2. raynewman

    raynewman Member

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    The *logic* is krap as it does not count the energy spent in extracting, refining and transporting the oil.
     
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  3. RichardMcN

    RichardMcN Member

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    Some on this forum are "powered by the sun" and really have the high ground. Some live in Tassie the hydro state. In our case, shaded by nearby trees, we have gone for green power, where our retailer puts the difference towards equivalent additional renewable capacity. It's a leap of faith that they are doing the right thing, and I would prefer panels, but am reluctant to mount a chainsaw assault on our lovely neighbours' 100 year old eucalypt!
     
  4. RichardMcN

    RichardMcN Member

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    Also I understand that Tesla purchases renewable energy certificates for supercharger greenhouse emmissions.
     
  5. Homer

    Homer Member

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    If you're buying electricity from dirty coal fired power sources then that's obviously not as good as charging from the sun or sourcing 100% renewable energy. But I remember reading somewhere that Tesla owners were more likely to buy renewable energy than the population generally. We can't get approval for solar panels on our roof - the neighbours that overlook us object and their objection is sustained by the council, which is ridiculous - so we buy 100% green power, which is allegedly akin to Tesla's own approach to powering their superchargers.
     
  6. paulp

    paulp Member

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    Nor does it mention the massive environmental and social damage from fighting over that same oil.
     
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  7. TesAus

    TesAus Member

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    Let's just say for a minute that the article is right for today's electricity mix in Australia and that they have accounted for well to wheel energy use.

    The huge differences are:

    1). Petrol/diesel cars get less efficient as they get older, whereas there will be little to no degradation on an EV. (EV range will drop because the battery capacity falls not because it is using more energy).

    2). The electricity grid is getting cleaner every year with more renewables, better emission controls on power stations and at some point retirement of the oldest dirtiest power stations.

    3). Oil will only get harder to extract over time as the "easy" reserves are depleted and they have to tap in to more remote fields or ones that require significantly more energy in processing.

    4). As noted in other comments above people can produce their own energy from solar panels and use this directly

    5). People can also buy 100% green power from their retailer. The more people that do this the faster adoption of renewables occurs as it becomes commercially more attractive to build more renewables.
     
  8. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 Model S P85

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    I'm not sure what to think of that article. The conclusion is reasonable (The crucial role for government is in changing the way power is generated), but the title and some of the content is click bait fodder for those who are pro pollution.

    Anyone who thinks EVs alone solves all the problems is an idiot. Of course clean and sustainable energy generation is another vital part of the puzzle. The author would seem to understand this. Not sure why he thought it necessary to give it an anti-EV feel.

    I might also add that supporting Tesla is also helping to support the change to sustainable clean energy generation through the developments of Tesla Energy and the Powerwall and Powerpack products. That should not be overlooked.
     
  9. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    6). The pollution from the power plant is not in the city where people breath it.
     
  10. Skotty

    Skotty 2014 Model S P85

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    This becomes vary apparent each time I get behind a car spewing smoke and stench...which on average is probably once or twice a week. That's not counting all the diesel service trucks, where you get to play try-to-avoid-the-black-clouds.
     
  11. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    Lignite, or brown coal emissions are apparently 0.36 kg/kWh:

    Specific carbon dioxide emissions of various fuels

    It can be as high as 0.41 kg/kWh. Assuming 400 watts/mile, thats 0.40 x 0.41 = 0.17 kg/mile, or 170 g/mile. But add in transmission (8% loss), charging (12% loss), and discharging losses (6% loss), we're probably talking 220 g/mile. But that doesn't factor in the whole shebang, as there is CO2 to get the coal to the power station too.

    Using West Virginia zip code (highest coal % in the U.S.), using fueleconomy.gov website, a Model S 70D gets 260 g/mile of GHG. They get this from the Argonne National Labs GREET model. I think they use 70% coal in this calculation. There are parts of Australia that are much worse.

    I don't have the upstream WTW emissions relevant to Australia, but in the U.S., a Prius hybrid gets 205 g/mile of GHG emissions.

    So yes, in parts of Australia, a Model S has worse CO2 emission than a Prius hybrid (260+ versus 205).

    However, there are several additional perspectives.

    A truly comparable vehicle, like a BMW 535d, or a Jaguar XF gets 416 and 444 g/mi respectively. So at even 300 g/mile, a Model S is far better than a comparable luxury vehicle.

    Also, a Model S gets better as your power plant emissions gets better. Further, you can personally mitigate the environmental impact by generating power yourself for the car, usually with solar at home or at work, where ever you can charge the car during the day. You can purchase greener power, but I'm not sure that really makes much of a difference - it might help spur the development of greener sources.

    Obviously, Australia could have a lot of solar generation with so much cheap and empty land.
     
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  12. Blue heaven

    Blue heaven Member

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    It's absolute garbage Alpal, as Ray states, the transport and refining of crude oil hasnt been factored in, plus many other factors.
    The games are beginning Alpal, check my other thread on this.
     
  13. PJF000

    PJF000 TOCA Member

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  14. Mark E

    Mark E Member

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    You have ignored the emissions from producing and transporting the fuel for the Prius.

    Plus, as others have pointed out, cars and trucks produce a lot of other noxious gasses and often particulate material that is dangerous.
     
  15. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    No, the GREET model is a WTW model.
     
  16. Blue heaven

    Blue heaven Member

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    Good point you make Paul, very often overlooked, I notice you got a thumbs down for your comment, someone trolling the site? Maybe it's ICEis ( the new horse and buggy).
     
  17. Miggy

    Miggy Member

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    And in New Zealand the minimum clean renewable power is 80% and increasing.
     
  18. paulp

    paulp Member

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    The article mentions solar, and yes thats solely how I charge. Havnt seen a prius capable of that. So lets look at an entire fleet. Maybe (wild guess) 30% of tesla owners have solar, so that reduces fleet emmisions by that percentage.
    If someone is going to do research, well do research properly.
     
  19. paulp

    paulp Member

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    Yes noticed I can press list and see who it was.....I'm thrilled that I'm no longer funding a middle east war once a week.
     
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  20. garyjac

    garyjac Member

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    Economy of scale and efficiency of operation in a coal fired power station mean that emissions are (overall) cut by about 50%, even in older stations, compared with burning hydrocarbon fuels in individual cars with an efficiency of 20 to 25% (if you're lucky). Those particulates that are emitted by D (for Diesel) cars need to be removed from the air I breathe!
     

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