Urban chargers - what's the point?

[gnuarm]

I believe the purpose of the urban charger is a smaller form factor for the cabinets and lower overall power consumption. Not all locations can support the V2 or V3 infrastructure.

I don't believe the cabinets are any different in size because it requires the same amount of circuitry. The power modules provide 36 kW and are ganged 4 together with each one connected to one of the two cars connections. What most call the "charger" is actually largely an empty cabinet built to be distinctive. That's why it has the big, open oval in the middle. It's a sleeve that slips over the two poles that secure it to the ground. The urban charger pedestal is just a smaller empty enclosure with simpler attachment. The electrical maximum is the same 144 kW, so the electrical supply and consumption are the same.

To the best of my knowledge they were designed intending to eliminate the low initial charging rate because of the PR aspects. I know there have been times I've moved once or twice to find a faster charging spot, but the reality is that doesn't last long since the car getting the fast rate will quickly reach a slower charge rate and more will be available to my car. If you aren't on a tight schedule it's no big deal either way.

 

[Sophias_dad]

There are definite advantages to ICE vehicles.

It sounds like you should get one. Its clear you are disappointed with the inconvenience of the one you have.

 

[gnuarm]

It sounds like you should get one. Its clear you are disappointed with the inconvenience of the one you have.

Yeah, that's the response from a lot of Tesla owners when people speak openly and honestly about EVs. I think if you can't handle the reality of owning and driving a Tesla in the real world, you should not read posts about them.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Yeah, that's the response from a lot of Tesla owners when people speak openly and honestly about EVs. I think if you can't handle the reality of owning and driving a Tesla in the real world, you should not read posts about them.

Perhaps if you can't handle the reality of owning and driving a Tesla in the real world, you should not own one. I'm perfectly happy with my Tesla.

I really don't care at all if you don't like having to wait an extra 15 minutes to charge before you jet off somewhere for a week or two. Presuming its for business, why not just get a limo to take you to the airport?

 

[gnuarm]

Perhaps if you can't handle the reality of owning and driving a Tesla in the real world, you should not own one. I'm perfectly happy with my Tesla.

I really don't care at all if you don't like having to wait an extra 15 minutes to charge before you jet off somewhere for a week or two. Presuming its for business, why not just get a limo to take you to the airport?

This is the silliness I get from Tesla owners. On one hand Tesla owners want to tell you how great it is owning an EV and how it's much better than an ICE. On the other hand when you point out the issues they dismiss them and offer silly advice.

I might just have to hire a limo as my model X is going into the service center AGAIN for some serious drive line issue, not to mention several lesser problems that need to be fixed. How much do you think a limo costs to drive 125 miles each way?

I just read that Consumer Reports rates Tesla the second worst auto maker in terms of reliability, just ahead of Lincoln... That says a LOT!

 

[Rocky_H]

I believe the purpose of the urban charger is a smaller form factor for the cabinets and lower overall power consumption. Not all locations can support the V2 or V3 infrastructure.

No--it IS a V2 cabinet. That is exactly what it is, so the site infrastructure is the same on that end. It's a 150 kW V2 cabinet. Now from the cabinets out to the pedestals is a bit reduced cost. Since it is only allowing half the amps out to each stall as a maximum, they get to use thinner cable in the underground conduit that goes out to the stalls. I haven't specifically seen that they do that, but it would be sensible, so I assume they do.

 

[MikeRadio]

Here is a question I have about Urban superchargers. I’ve noticed a lot of them are in places that are meant to spend more time in such as Smalls. Is it OK to leave your car there and go about your shopping etc. while the car is sitting at an urban supercharger, even if it stops charging?

 

[Supcom]

Here is a question I have about Urban superchargers. I’ve noticed a lot of them are in places that are meant to spend more time in such as Smalls. Is it OK to leave your car there and go about your shopping etc. while the car is sitting at an urban supercharger, even if it stops charging?

As far as I know, the idle rules are the same as for the other superchargers.

 

[brkaus]

Here is a question I have about Urban superchargers. I’ve noticed a lot of them are in places that are meant to spend more time in such as Smalls. Is it OK to leave your car there and go about your shopping etc. while the car is sitting at an urban supercharger, even if it stops charging?

No, it is not ok. Idle charges will apply if more than 50% of the stalls are in use. Or whatever magic logic they use if some are broken.

 

[RayK]

Not to mention it's rude to unnecessarily hog the charger when somebody else might need it.

I use an Urban Supercharger when the two ChargePoint CHAdeMO stations I typically use are busy. The SC is located next to a large hardware store so sometimes I shop while charging or go buy a lottery ticket at the liquor store. Mostly, I sit in my car for the ~40 minutes it takes me to charge back to 90%.

 

[RTPEV]

Here is a question I have about Urban superchargers. I’ve noticed a lot of them are in places that are meant to spend more time in such as Smalls. Is it OK to leave your car there and go about your shopping etc. while the car is sitting at an urban supercharger, even if it stops charging?

If it stops charging, it's NEVER okay to leave your car at a charger (regardless of charger type or whether or not idle fees are incurred).

Okay, I can think of three acceptable exceptions (none of which apply to urban chargers or DC chargers in general):

1. At a hotel or apartment complex L2 station where you are expected to leave your vehicle plugged in overnight.
2. At an L1/L2 station at an airport where you are expected to leave the car plugged in while you are away.
3. At a workplace charging station where you have some kind of system (instant messaging, e-mail group) to communicate with other owners that may need a charge (even this is on the edge of being acceptable--you should move the vehicle when it is finished if possible, but if you are in a meeting when that happens, it would be okay for you to defer as long as you move it as soon as possible afterwards and let other users know the station is vacant).

Did I miss any? Does anyone disagree with the above?

DC fast chargers are a valuable resource that should be vacated as soon as possible. While urban superchargers may be sited at places with longer dwell times, that does not change the etiquette. Some regular Superchargers are sited at hotels but that doesn't mean it's okay to plug in and leave it plugged in all night.

 

[Falcon73]

I'd much rather see more high amperage Destination Chargers at malls vs. Urban Superchargers. Urbans/V2s are still too fast to do much more than grab a quick bite. They are certainly too fast to hang out at the mall for a couple hours (even an hour really). Mission Viejo Mall has Urban V2s and they get a lot of activity but they are really both too slow (to sit in your car) and too fast (to hit the mall) at the same time.

They have put in a bunch of Destination Chargers at the Kaleidoscope MV mall, plus a bunch of V3s, which I think is the right approach, if SDG&E ever gets a transformer installed for the site! (I will check again this weekend)

 

[gnuarm]

No, it is not ok. Idle charges will apply if more than 50% of the stalls are in use. Or whatever magic logic they use if some are broken.

Idle charges apply, and at the ones I use, I see no indication that 50% utilization is factored in at all.

 

[beatle]

I was able to use the urban SC in Philadelphia to charge my P85D for an hour and 15 minutes while I went to get a roast pork sandwich, though I was going from 15% to 89%, and I only averaged 46kw over the entire session. A newer car built in the past 5 years would probably peg the charger's output until hitting 80% SoC.

Agreed that the urban SCs have kind of a weird output, but I suppose it's better than not having anything at all, assuming a full speed supercharger isn't an option due to infrastructure limitations. I was glad to have those available for my return trip from Philly.

 

[gnuarm]

I was able to use the urban SC in Philadelphia to charge my P85D for an hour and 15 minutes while I went to get a roast pork sandwich, though I was going from 15% to 89%, and I only averaged 46kw over the entire session. A newer car built in the past 5 years would probably peg the charger's output until hitting 80% SoC.

Agreed that the urban SCs have kind of a weird output, but I suppose it's better than not having anything at all, assuming a full speed supercharger isn't an option due to infrastructure limitations. I was glad to have those available for my return trip from Philly.

I've not confirmed this, but I'm told the standard SCs do the same thing now, when two cars are connected. It used to be that the first car connected would get all it would request. If a second car connected, it received some minimum amount, and as the first car charged more and slowed, the second car would charge faster. Not any longer I'm told. Now the two cars will get a max of 75 kW like the Urban charger.

It's still a pretty pointless setup to only provide 75 kW when no other car is connected.

 

[beatle]

Urban superchargers don't share load capacity between pedestals so 72kw is their maximum output regardless of the output of their neighbors. You can say it's a glass half empty situation if you believe they operated like a V2 supercharger where they boost up to 100-150kw if nobody is next to you, but they don't work like that. Instead, the glass is half full, ensuring you always get 72kw even when the entire site is packed. This ensures you can trust the estimated charging time on the car/app since the rate will not change if someone else plugs in or unplugs next to you - an especially useful estimate if you're in an urban area and you're running an errand nearby and you need to plan when to come back to your car.

 

[GtiMart]

72kW with certainty was better than the initial sharing algorithm for the second person arriving as you might have had just 32kW. With the new algorithm sharing is systematically 72kW so one could argue that urban chargers are not worth it anymore and should simply be V2s that share power when they need to. You could thus sometimes hit 150kW. But, they are already installed so it's too late to revert them to V2s, and as you say @beatle is does provide a certain precision in charging time.
It's all moot if Tesla has stopped installing urban chargers...

 

[gnuarm]

Urban superchargers don't share load capacity between pedestals so 72kw is their maximum output regardless of the output of their neighbors. You can say it's a glass half empty situation if you believe they operated like a V2 supercharger where they boost up to 100-150kw if nobody is next to you, but they don't work like that. Instead, the glass is half full, ensuring you always get 72kw even when the entire site is packed. This ensures you can trust the estimated charging time on the car/app since the rate will not change if someone else plugs in or unplugs next to you - an especially useful estimate if you're in an urban area and you're running an errand nearby and you need to plan when to come back to your car.

Yes, know Urban chargers don't share 150 kW total between two cables. That's the problem I am talking about.

Your "advantage" of knowing you will always get 75 kW minimum can be done with any supercharger capable of 150 kW minimum. In fact, I'm told that's what standard Superchargers are currently doing.

There is no advantage to the Urban charger. The only possible advantage is that you are guaranteed a minimum charging time as well as a maximum. Urban units are typically placed in shopping areas, so people can have some amount of time to shop. I find this much, much less useful than getting charged as quickly as possible.

The irony is, they extend your charging time, then still charge you for idle time. The reality is, Urban chargers are just very slow chargers, and should be replaced by standard Superchargers.

 

[RayK]

There is no advantage to the Urban charger. The only possible advantage is that you are guaranteed a minimum charging time as well as a maximum. Urban units are typically placed in shopping areas, so people can have some amount of time to shop. I find this much, much less useful than getting charged as quickly as possible.

This is exactly why I use an Urban Supercharger. The one I would normally use is next to a large hardware store. I generally charge from 50% to 90%, which for an Urban SC takes about 35-40 minutes. That's enough time for me to go into the store and shop. No rush and worry that if I get caught in a line at checkout, that idle fees would be assessed or I'd be taking up a stand that could be used by somebody else. If I need a fast charge, then there's several 250kW stations about the same distance away from my house.

It's good to have a choice. Slower charging when you're multitasking, faster charging when you need to get going in a minimum amount of time. You typically won't find an Urban Supercharger located nearby a major highway exit, unless it's in a shopping center or large store, like you said. There's a Bass Pro shop located next to Highway 85 here in San Jose. There's 24 Urban Superchargers on the outer edge of the parking lot. About a mile away, on the other side of 85, in the parking lot of a major mall, there's 20 Tesla Destination chargers and 24 250kW stalls. Assuming that the Tesla owner knows the difference between the two choices, they can either hook up their car and go shopping (for hours) or watch a movie at the multiplex. Or, if they're on a trip traveling through the area, get a "splash and dash". If those Urban and Destination chargers were replaced with 250kW or even 150kW stalls, you'd greatly inconvenience those shoppers and moviegoers. You may find the slow charging impractical, but there's a good application for it.

 

[gnuarm]

This is exactly why I use an Urban Supercharger. The one I would normally use is next to a large hardware store. I generally charge from 50% to 90%, which for an Urban SC takes about 35-40 minutes. That's enough time for me to go into the store and shop. No rush and worry that if I get caught in a line at checkout, that idle fees would be assessed or I'd be taking up a stand that could be used by somebody else. If I need a fast charge, then there's several 250kW stations about the same distance away from my house.

It's good to have a choice. Slower charging when you're multitasking, faster charging when you need to get going in a minimum amount of time. You typically won't find an Urban Supercharger located nearby a major highway exit, unless it's in a shopping center or large store, like you said. There's a Bass Pro shop located next to Highway 85 here in San Jose. There's 24 Urban Superchargers on the outer edge of the parking lot. About a mile away, on the other side of 85, in the parking lot of a major mall, there's 20 Tesla Destination chargers and 24 250kW stalls. Assuming that the Tesla owner knows the difference between the two choices, they can either hook up their car and go shopping (for hours) or watch a movie at the multiplex. Or, if they're on a trip traveling through the area, get a "splash and dash". If those Urban and Destination chargers were replaced with 250kW or even 150kW stalls, you'd greatly inconvenience those shoppers and moviegoers. You may find the slow charging impractical, but there's a good application for it.

If you are charging from 50% up, you won't see charging much higher than 75 kW. The charging rate is generally a triangle, starting very low at 0%, increasing to a peak at around 20%, then slowing to 100%. Even at 50% the rate is not so high.

I don't recall for sure, but the lithium phosphate battery may charge faster at 50%.