Used 2019 Model 3 Standard Range Plus - Does it need a new battery?

[whiteskulleton]

I'm looking to buy a used Tesla. I went to a dealership and sat in a car and took a picture of the Energy screen. Am I correct to assume that it's battery is not good?
2019 Model 3 Standard Range Plus
Odometer: 47,651
209 Wh/Mi for 30 miles average range
183 miles projected
SOC: 88%

That would gives us 209*183/.88=43.5 kWh @ 100% charge
The original battery capacity is 54.5kWh, correct? That would then be 43.5 kWh / 54.5 kWh = 79.7% capacity, correct? This battery is not looking good, correct? Did I use the wrong capacity number? Did I do the math wrong? Could it be that the car was sitting at the dealership and not moving so that had an impact on it's battery degradation?

 

[father_of_6]

I would say though, that if there is a lot of cars that had more degradation (according to the BMS) charged to 80% then a lot of cars charged to 90% or more we should not dismiss this as a BMS error without further investigation.

That's all I was saying. Having higher degradation from charging to 80% than either 75% or 100% sounds like a BMS issue.

But what do I know? I'm just a garbage man.

 

[AAKEE]

That's all I was saying. Having higher degradation from charging to 80% than either 75% or 100% sounds like a BMS issue.

How can you tell that it is a BMS issue?

I would guess that this comes from the imagination that 100% is worse than 75 and 80% ?

If the research support the idea that 80% actually causes more degradation from calendar aging than 75 or 100%, then it is not very safe to adopt that it is a BMS issue. Anyway, this is not important in this thread I guess

 

[whiteskulleton]

I did feel that I had to answer this, but at the same time we are dragging away from on topic with the risk that the OP misses the point of hus question?

Yeah, the conversation has gone over my head. As an engineer I love all this data and wish I had time to really understand it but I'm about to spend my life savings on a 105k Tesla and I need to know if this logic is not sound:
I am using the energy screens to help me determine the health of the battery. A battery replacement is over $10k so I figure that going with a Tesla that has 105k miles but a great battery that will last to well over 300k miles will cost less to maintain than a Tesla that has 58k miles and the battery fails after warranty.

I live in Raleigh, NC and I took these measurements of the energy screens:
Blue Tesla M3 SR+: 209*183/.88=43.5 kWh / 52.5kWh = 83%
White Tesla M3 SR+: 207*187/.88 = 44.0 kWh / 52.5 kWh = 84%
White Tesla M3 LR: 262*229/.87 = 69.0 kWh / 72.8? kWh = 95%? (Didn't mention this before but odometer was at 14,890 miles

Dealer is in Arlington, VA: (1st owner drove it in Bronx, NY; 2nd owner drove it in Fairfield, CT)
Black Tesla M3 SR+: 204 Wh/mi * 241 mi projected= 49164 Wh / 52500 Wh = 93.6 %

Thanks in advance.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm about to spend my life savings on a 105k (miles) Tesla

This is a bad idea. I do not recommend it. I have had essentially zero service costs on my car, but I would be very cautious for a used vehicle. You need to have the ability to invest more in the vehicle to make it work, after the initial outlay. Otherwise you could be up a dirty creek without a paddle. If you were left with plenty of funds I think it could be fine after plenty of DD.

Aside from that:
1) Method of determining capacity is sound and everyone buying a vehicle used should do this as DD. (It is less helpful for brand new vehicles due to the degradation threshold.)
2) I don’t know that capacity loss is all that well correlated with chance of failure. Failures of packs tend to be due to manufacturing defect, moisture intrusion, pack damage, or just wearing out after much use. So just because the pack has naturally lost a lot of capacity due to aging does not dramatically increase chance of failure (I don’t know this but I suspect it). However, more range in a pack is better of course - makes the vehicle more useful. Especially for SR+.


My feeling is that a battery with 6% loss is roughly equally likely to experience failure as one with 15% loss. Just a feeling. Bathtub curves and all.

So I have no idea what to tell you. No idea what extended warranty options might exist which could be worthwhile.

 

[father_of_6]

No idea what extended warranty options might exist which could be worthwhile.

The extended warranty that would be worthwhile would be buying a *new* SR+ that will provide 8 years / 100k miles on the battery and drive train.

I figure that going with a Tesla that has 105k miles but a great battery that will last to well over 300k miles will cost less to maintain than a Tesla that has 58k miles and the battery fails after warranty.

So just to reiterate, degradation and battery failure don't seem entirely related. A battery in fantastic condition can just fail out of the blue.

I'm a cheapskate, and convinced myself that I didn't want to pay $2,500 to repair my last vehicle... so I traded it in for a Model 3. That was 2 years ago, and I've since spent more than $2,500 on tires and alignments.

The Model 3 is not a cheap car to have repaired. You certainly could end up owning it for years without incident, just like any car. If that happens, it'll be cheap fuel and no oil changes. But if something goes wrong and you're out of warranty, it could be very expensive.

 

[AAKEE]

White Tesla M3 LR: 262*229/.87 = 69.0 kWh / 72.8? kWh = 95%? (Didn't mention this before but odometer was at 14,890 miles

LR was 77.8 kWh new.
69/77.8 = 11% loss.

 

[AAKEE]

My feeling is that a battery with 6% loss is roughly equally likely to experience failure as one with 15% loss. Just a feeling. Bathtub curves and all.

Yes, the failure won’t be degradation related but other hardware such as the BMS computer or contactors.

I’m with you. A warranty expired Tesla with a low price could be a really good by. No failures and low costs per mile.

On the other hand it could fail a battery, or a driving unit or the heating element etc.

This is not really different for us that bought a new one. We need to be able to manage a failure after all warranties is gone. If not, it could be a very expensive experience.
If it feels expensive buying a new battery, try to sell the car with a broken one

Some kind of plan how to handle a expensive failure is a must, combined with holding the thumbs it won’t happen.

Om the other hand, this is not really different from having a premium ICE car.
A new gearbox on my Audi is not far from the cost of a new battery on my tesla.

 

[XCare EV]

This is a bad idea. I do not recommend it. I have had essentially zero service costs on my car, but I would be very cautious for a used vehicle. You need to have the ability to invest more in the vehicle to make it work, after the initial outlay. Otherwise you could be up a dirty creek without a paddle. If you were left with plenty of funds I think it could be fine after plenty of DD.

Aside from that:
1) Method of determining capacity is sound and everyone buying a vehicle used should do this as DD. (It is less helpful for brand new vehicles due to the degradation threshold.)
2) I don’t know that capacity loss is all that well correlated with chance of failure. Failures of packs tend to be due to manufacturing defect, moisture intrusion, pack damage, or just wearing out after much use. So just because the pack has naturally lost a lot of capacity due to aging does not dramatically increase chance of failure (I don’t know this but I suspect it). However, more range in a pack is better of course - makes the vehicle more useful. Especially for SR+.


My feeling is that a battery with 6% loss is roughly equally likely to experience failure as one with 15% loss. Just a feeling. Bathtub curves and all.

So I have no idea what to tell you. No idea what extended warranty options might exist which could be worthwhile.

We're happy to help. Check out XCare EV Protection threads on this forum and go to our website at www.xcelerateauto.com/xcare for a no-hassle/don't have to put in your info/nobody's gonna bug you quote. This calculator can also be used to help you shop, so you can compare costs of coverage for various vehicles you're considering for an "all-in" idea of overall cost. Cheers, Brent @ Xcelerate Auto/XCare

 

[whiteskulleton]

This is not really different for us that bought a new one. We need to be able to manage a failure after all warranties is gone. If not, it could be a very expensive experience.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at. It sounds like buying a Tesla once it has passed it's warranty is very risky. Mainly because Tesla is one of the only companies locally that can fix the battery. Because of this, I can't get a competitive price for a batter replacement. If what you guys are saying is correct, it's hard to correctly price a used Tesla after it's battery warranty has expired since it isn't really possible to figure out how much life the battery has left. You're basically rolling the dice and hoping it doesn't have a problem. If I can find a local dealer who can replace a bad module for like $4k, would it then be more feasible?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If I can find a local dealer who can replace a bad module for like $4k, would it then be more feasible?

My understanding is this is not a thing.

You are just going to be getting a refurbished pack for $10k-$14k from Tesla and moving on. Simple and easy.

 

[father_of_6]

If I can find a local dealer who can replace a bad module for like $4k, would it then be more feasible?

You can't replace individual modules. At least at this time, it doesn't work. Whole pack replacement is required.

That said, there *are* third-party options for pack replacement that are less expensive. Electrified Garage and Recell are two that come to mind.

it's hard to correctly price a used Tesla after it's battery warranty has expired since it isn't really possible to figure out how much life the battery has left.

I agree with this. You could find out about XCare warranties.

In a decade or two, there may be many, many places to have batteries replaced, and likely even after-market battery replacements.

I'm not saying owning a used Tesla is terribly risky and a bad idea. Just that if you buy one thinking that it'll be inexpensive for 300k miles, that could end up very incorrect.

With the recent price drops and the federal tax credit, owning a new Model 3 is at an almost historic low. Then you have the peace of mind knowing that at least for 100k miles / 8 years you won't have to pay for a battery or drive unit. That doesn't mean there couldn't be other issues not covered by warranty.

Let's face it - at the end of the day a Model 3 is still an expensive vehicle. Repairs are expensive. A joy to drive though.

 

[3rror]

I had a 2019 Model 3 SR and that is pretty good and about normal as compared to the one I had. While I only had 27,000 miles, at 100% charge, I'd get about 208 to 210 miles over a couple years of ownership. When it as new, it consistently registered 240. I had the 19" Stiletto (called I believe Sport now) wheels. I'd only occasionally Super Charge, maybe 12 times a year since I had it. I wish I had lots of data for you, but just thought maybe a regular old person's experience thrown into the mix of responses might be helpful.

 

[johnny_cakes]

I had a 2019 Model 3 SR and that is pretty good and about normal as compared to the one I had. While I only had 27,000 miles, at 100% charge, I'd get about 208 to 210 miles over a couple years of ownership. When it as new, it consistently registered 240. I had the 19" Stiletto (called I believe Sport now) wheels. I'd only occasionally Super Charge, maybe 12 times a year since I had it. I wish I had lots of data for you, but just thought maybe a regular old person's experience thrown into the mix of responses might be helpful.

My 2019 Model 3 SR+ is very similar. It now shows ~339km (210 miles) at full charge and that number is also confirmed by Tessie's battery health page.